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DarkJedi wrote:
Quote:More to the point, he trouble is when those people use their wealth as “proof” that their way is the right way, and/or that even their blatant transgressions are “minor, necessary evils” that God is willing to overlook.
I was thinking more of those who are not religious, and they don’t tend to look at it the same way we do. Our small business owner neighbor, for example, accredits it all to his own hard work (a very American principle). He does make more than we do, but he’s also way farther in debt.
Yes, humans gonna human. We look at the good things that happen to us and naturally believe those things to be the result of our own choices, hard work, and determination. We look at the bad things that happen to us and we tend to ascribe those things to forces outside of our control. This can be seen in everything from theories about evolution to stock market picks.
I believe that in our church we give this very human tendency a religious bulwark. God favors the righteous + God blesses those He favors = God blesses the righteous. Blessings are a sign of righteousness and the righteous are justified in expecting blessings.
I believe that the prosperity gospel is particularly intertwined with our teaching of the principle of tithing. From the scripture in Malachi, to the BYU video the “windows of heaven”, to current conference talks (Windows of heaven, Elder Bednar, 2013), and even the official definition of the concept of tithing on LDS.org and other church publications – references to “temporal blessings” are everywhere.
Elder Bednar wrote:
Often as we teach and testify about the law of tithing, we emphasize the immediate, dramatic, and readily recognizable temporal blessings that we receive.Here Elder Bednar readily admits that we “often” teach tithing coupled with “immediate, dramatic, and readily recognizable [quid pro quo] temporal blessings”. This sounds like a problem, not the least of which is disappointment when a miraculous rescue check does not materialize in our own hour of need. What does Elder Bednar recommend we do about it?
Quote:Often as we teach and testify about the law of tithing, we emphasize the immediate, dramatic, and readily recognizable temporal blessings that we receive. And surely such blessings do occur. Yet some of the diverse blessings we obtain as we are obedient to this commandment are significant but subtle. Such blessings can be discerned only if we are both spiritually attentive and observant (see 1 Corinthians 2:14).
He gives as a personal family example the blessing of “costs for doctor visits and medicines” being under budget.
Yes, you read that right. The solution to the problem of expecting an immediate, dramatic, and miraculous quid pro quo temporal tithing is not that we have been teaching tithing wrong this whole time. The solution is not to humble our hearts and realize that God causes the rains of fortune and misfortune to fall upon the just and unjust alike. The solution is not to reevaluate whether God is pleased with our claiming our wealth and prosperity as the just recompense of our tithing obedience. The solution, according to Elder Bednar, is to look harder at our temporal ledgers until we can discern “significant but subtle blessings that are not always what we expect and easily can be overlooked.”
Honestly in regards to tithing, there does not seem to be room to discuss the following: Maybe God will only has spiritual blessings in store for me through tithing. Maybe my tithing blessings are for the next life only. Maybe the windows of heaven promise was to the nation of Israel collectively and not to individual persons. Those ideas would seem to challenge that faith of some (who unfortunately have the prosperity gospel as a major plank in their testimony structure) and would most likely not be embraced in a Sunday School setting.
In regards to the doctrine of tithing, we LDS are the biggest proponents of the prosperity gospel of any church with whom I am familiar. Sometimes religious belief can temper some of our natural humanistic tendencies. Unfortunately, our teachings around tithing and the Prosperity Gospel only serve to feed, harden, and justify our naturally occuring hubris.
The prosperity gospel is a double edged sword. There are many people who are active members of the Church, keep the commandments to the best of their ability, and have exceptional success in both their career and family life. This feeds back on itself, and creates further commitment and leads credence to the prosperity gospel. People want to feel like they “own” their successes. They want to feel in control. It’s like the highly successful CEOs. When things go well, they take all the credit, and give themselves exorbitant bonuses. When things don’t go well, it’s the economy’s fault, the government’s fault, the consumer’s fault. It couldn’t be their own, because they were already so rich and successful! And so they give themselves huge bonuses anyways. What no “successful” person wants to hear, and will GREATLY resent being told, is how much of their “success” was due to factors outside their control. Those people rise to the top, take all the credit, and are largely the ones we turn to if we want to be “successful” too.
BUT, the odds are stacked heavily against us. Only .07% of all people currently living make over $120,000 (the taxable salary of the General Authorities); and there simply aren’t enough resources for everyone to be that rich. You have to be born in the right country, with the right parents (and the right genetic makeup), who emphasize and encourage in the right areas. You have to have the right friends and connections, and go to the proper school with the right teachers. And most of the “successful” were not the rags-to-riches stories we love hearing about in America. Most of them had the world handed to them on a silver platter. And yet almost none of them will admit this. They will write books to their ingenuity and hard work, and those books will sell for millions.
If the successful deserve their success, due to their hard work, cleverness, or in the case of the Church, their faithfulness, then it stands to reason all of us “losers” fully deserve our fate as well. If you go through a divorce, you deserved that. If your kids turn out rotten, you deserve that too. Unemployed? You are lazy. Never made it into the Bishopric or RS presidency? Lazy AND sinful. And yet it must be true, because it’s coming from those who have had success in all these areas and more!
NightSG wrote:
Maybe not by name, but I hear a whole heck of a lot of “and I know I/we have received all of these extra financial blessings because I/we ____” in various talks.If I limit the definition of prosperity gospel to financial success and relative health I could say that I don’t hear an abundance of references to the prosperity gospel. If I extend the definition of prosperity to the more nebulous concept of ‘blessings’ I wouldn’t be able to go 5 minutes at church without hearing a reference to the prosperity gospel. Although ill defined, blessings are heaven’s currency, so I think it counts.
For instance, over the last three weeks in my ward we’ve put a lot of emphasis on the idea that personal revelation will come only when we are more obedient. Struggling to receive revelation? That’s because you need to be more worthy to receive it. It’s stuff like that that leads to scrupulosity but in the example revelation equates to wealth and obedience is what gets you there… just ignore the examples of Alma the younger, Paul on the way to Damascus, and countless others. If
youneed revelation you need to be nigh perfect. It’s the quid pro quo, apply the formula, got it down to a science god that no longer resonates with me. My life is
fullof personal counter-examples. But that’s the god we talk about Sunday-n and Sunday-out. Roy mentioned this in another thread, no one wants me giving counter-examples to the blocks that build people’s faith at church, but those make up myexperiences. Our lessons wouldn’t be productive if I raised my hand to correct every time we ventured down the prosperity gospel path. But that’s religion (in my opinion). Someone’s formula to create the certainty that they need in their lives to feel that connection with deity. Maybe that’s my problem. The constant of my integration into church culture isn’t a constant at all, it’s a variable.
I came across a quote today, which I thought was fitting. Michael de Montaigne wrote:“Is it possible to imagine anything so ridiculous as this miserable and wretched creature, which is not so much as master of himself, exposed and subject to offenses of all things; and yet dareth call himself master and emperor of this universe in whose power it is not to know the least part of it, much less to command the same?
And the privilege, which he so fondly challengeth, to be the only absolute creature in this huge world’s frame perfectly able to know the absolute beauty and several parts thereof, and that he is only of power to yield the great Architect thereof due thanks for it, and keep account both of the receipts and layings-out of the world! Who hath sealed him this patent? Let him show us his letters of
privilege for so noble and so great a charge.”
As soon as you accept that the rain falls on everyone, you are liberated. Your testimony is free of expectations from God or the Church, you live your life in acceptance that crap may well happen to you like everyone else, and move on. The prosperity gospel sounds good, but when it doesn’t happen, it’s pretty nasty on testimonies and inner peace. You feel sold out!! dande48 wrote:
What no “successful” person wants to hear, and will GREATLY resent being told, is how much of their “success” was due to factors outside their control. Those people rise to the top, take all the credit, and are largely the ones we turn to if we want to be “successful” too.
I am a “successful” parent in that a) I have children, b) I am currently proven to be a sufficient steward of them that those children are still entrusted into my care, and c) I listen, think about, and do my best to become a better parent to the children I have. There are quite a few ways I feel “unsuccessful” in this area – but no one would benefit from the book I could write about that.
Quite a few people could describe me as “successful” as an educator because of my daughter. My daughter is an AMAZING reader – 2nd grader reading at 5th-6th grade reading level.
Parent contributions to her reading success:1. We listen to a lot of audio books and like books in general.
This is me selfishly taking care of me and my needs for words.2. DH and I take turns reading aloud for 10-15 minutes (non scripture) most nights… mostly because this was an acceptable form of 15 minutes of family time (we are all introverts who drive each other nuts easily).
3. DH sits with her and makes her do her school work.
Her contribution to her reading success:1. Deciding that written words/spelling was a secret code between parents that SHE was going to crack so that she knew what the parents were saying.2. Development brain wiring designed to use words to navigate through life…
3. A new way to avoid socializing and/or being bored (so she keeps reading and picking up words).
My “success” isn’t so really so much mine. My daughter internalized the environment we set her up with and ran with it. It is her success, not mine. If a parent gets success, it would be DH for introducing audio books, doing the best voices while reading out loud, and working with DD to get the work done.
It’s even more sobering because this “success” is more of a characteristic that other children with atypical development have. Yes, she is a phenomenal reader – but she does not have the executive functioning skills of other children her age – she gets lost easily, her emotional filter does not work enough to filter details appropriately (meltdowns over the shape of her waffles), does not know how to maneuver her body through space the way other children do (hurts others by accident because applies too much body strength, trips over people because she doesn’t compute how to move her body in regards to where the other person is), and other unique things.
She redefines “success” for me when she decides to internalize patterns of behavior and thinking to become a better person. “Success” is seeing progress in math over time as she finds successful math strategies. “Success” is her deciding to make different choices because she can envision a different result.
dande48 wrote:
BUT, the odds are stacked heavily against us. Only .07% of all people currently living make over $120,000 (the taxable salary of the General Authorities); and there simply aren’t enough resources for everyone to be that rich. You have to be born in the right country, with the right parents (and the right genetic makeup), who emphasize and encourage in the right areas. You have to have the right friends and connections, and go to the proper school with the right teachers. And most of the “successful” were not the rags-to-riches stories we love hearing about in America. Most of them had the world handed to them on a silver platter. And yet almost none of them will admit this. They will write books to their ingenuity and hard work, and those books will sell for millions.If the successful deserve their success, due to their hard work, cleverness, or in the case of the Church, their faithfulness, then it stands to reason all of us “losers” fully deserve our fate as well. If you go through a divorce, you deserved that. If your kids turn out rotten, you deserve that too. Unemployed? You are lazy. Never made it into the Bishopric or RS presidency? Lazy AND sinful. And yet it must be true, because it’s coming from those who have had success in all these areas and more!
One of our biggest cultural sins as a society (and a church) is assuming that “Success” is one-size-fits all instead of a path of individual growth and progress. I feel that we give lip service to the idea that there are multiple versions of “success” – but we reconcile from it. It is hard for us to see both the prodigal son and the obedient son as “successful” . If you define success as “having assets” then yes, the oldest son is and always has been “successful”. If you define success as “personal progress”, then one could argue that the prodigal son had the most “success”, or that both of them were “successful”.
It’s only when the traditional definitions of “success” no longer work in your life that you start redefining them – and owning them in the process. Because I know my daughter has atypical development (even for rather loose criteria for kids), I can set up the environment to be as friendly a learning environment for her, I can tailor our expectations to what is reasonable for her, and I can give her extra support to meet goals (and an extra push to challenge herself – such as personal access to higher level books to read). I also get to celebrate things that are uniquely her – such as the great reading level she is at.
A popular televangelist says he needs $54 million to buy a jet to help him spread the Gospel throughout the world – and he is asking his followers to send him the money. It is his 4th plane. We definitely have issue with the Prosperity Gospel, but we are not close to the extreme.
Old Timer wrote:
A popular televangelist says he needs $54 million to buy a jet to help him spread the Gospel throughout the world – and he is asking his followers to send him the money. It is his 4th plane.We definitely have issue with the Prosperity Gospel, but we are not close to the extreme.
I read about that too Curt and had the same thought. I do not know the specifics of this televangelist’s message or how extreme the prosperity Gospel in his message is. He seems to hold himself up as a prototype of the prosperity gospel. He can be wealthy because he is doing God’s work and God will bless his servants. In fact his wealth serves as proof of God’s favor. Isn’t God great?
I would compare his version of the Prosperity Gospel to a “get rich quick” or investment program. “If you follow my specific formula, you can be rich just like me.”
The Mormon version of the Prosperity Gospel is more of an insurance program. “If you are obedient to the law of tithing, God will prevent misfortune in a variety of ways big and small. You might not even know that God prevented a disaster because it never came to fruition.”
Elder Bednar wrote:
a subtle but significant blessing we receive is the spiritual gift of gratitude thatenables our appreciation for what we have to constrain desires for what we want. A grateful person is rich in contentment. [snip] increased spiritual and temporal capacity (see Luke 2:52)
to do more with less, a keener ability to prioritize and simplify, and an enhanced ability to take proper care of the material possessions we already haveacquired. [snip] Assurance, peace, faith, and hopeinitially might not seem like the blessings warriors in battle might want, but they were precisely the blessings these valiant young men needed to press forward and prevail physically and spiritually.[snip] The
costs for doctor visits and medicines for their family were far lowerthan might have been expected. She then related this finding to the gospel of Jesus Christ and explained to her daughter a powerful truth: as we live the law of tithing, we often receive significant but subtle blessings that are not always what we expect and easily can be overlooked.
The LDS version of the prosperity gospel is perhaps better identified as a safety/security gospel. The more I think about it the more I like the analogy to insurance. Insurance is not a payday – it is not a windfall. If you have opportunity to use your health insurance it is 1) for preventative care or 2) to help pay for possibly life saving treatment because a member of your family is sick or injured. It is to protect or mitigate the effect on your out of pocket expenses. It sure sounds like this is the version of the prosperity Gospel that Elder Bednar is preaching.
Old Timer wrote:
A popular televangelist says he needs $54 million to buy a jet to help him spread the Gospel throughout the world – and he is asking his followers to send him the money. It is his 4th plane.We definitely have issue with the Prosperity Gospel, but we are not close to the extreme.
Sorry for being that guy… again.
At least he’s up front about where the money will go. People that contribute know in advance that he’s going to buy a jet. If people think that’s money misplaced they can reserve their donations.
We do have issues with the prosperity gospel but it’s hard to know to what extreme. Take the recent rumors that the church has $32 billion in stock – that’s not including real estate holdings, cash, etc. That sounds extreme. If the church gets another billion it will be their 33rd billion (assuming the rumors are true).
nibbler wrote:
At least he’s up front about where the money will go. People that contribute know in advance that he’s going to buy a jet. If people think that’s money misplaced they can reserve their donations.We do have issues with the prosperity gospel but it’s hard to know to what extreme. Take the recent rumors that the church has $32 billion in stock – that’s not including real estate holdings, cash, etc. That sounds extreme. If the church gets another billion it will be their 33rd billion (assuming the rumors are true).
I’ve got this feeling too. On the one hand, thinking back to televangelist Mark Murdock,
Mike Murdock wrote:“I had enough money to buy a beautiful Cessna Citation jet – cash! And, since there’s so much jealousy in this room tonight that I can feel over this: a few weeks later, I bought another one worth three times what that one was – cash! Act happy over my blessings, folks!”
That guy is scum; especially since him and those like him are manipulating their congregation into sending them money in return for blessings. The Church isn’t that bad… but saying, “At least I’m not as bad as ______” is a pretty poor defense. The Church has gone to extreme lengths to not be financially accountable to the membership. Many members fully believe that the GAs are not paid, and those that do, believe it is only a modest living stipend. Most members also don’t have a clue to the financial holdings and transactions of the Church. They assume the Church lives year to year by the financial support of the membership, and that all excess beyond building maintenance goes to helping the poor, etc.
Yeah, that is another level dande. I will give the church that, they don’t appear to have let the riches go to their heads, they still do their best to be fiscally responsible and frugal. If anything, I think the issue with the church is more related to letting the creation of a rainy day fund get out of control, perhaps with a hint of wealth hoarding. But what do any of us really know? nibbler wrote:But what do any of us really know?
I know that nibbler has wicked-awesome avatars…that’s about all I know for sure.Old-Timer wrote:
A popular televangelist says he needs $54 million to buy a jet to help him spread the Gospel throughout the world – and he is asking his followers to send him the money. It is his 4th plane.We definitely have issue with the Prosperity Gospel, but we are not close to the extreme.
Didn’t the Huntsmans donate a plane and crew to the church to help fly Pres Hinckley around? Certainly not the same thing…but also not entirely different in seeing wealth used for transportation to achieve religious purposes in the minds of people.
One person’s blessing from the Lord is another person’s temptations from the devil to lead them to hell with good intentions. Stage 3 (us vs them) stories.
Luckily, I’m blessed with no prosperity to tempt my soul
A billionaire letting leaders use his personal jet to travel is WAY different than those leaders telling their followers to donate specifically for a private jet. Seriously different universes. I agree completely that finances are a difficult area to keep pure intentions and practices, and I understand the concerns about such a large investment pool, but I also understand an almost obsessive focus on NEVER being in a dire financial situation again – like the LDS Church was for most of its existence. If another serious depression hits the US or the world, I don’t want the Church to be at risk financially. I understand the Biblicl precedent of saving for seven years of famine.
This is an incredibly tricky issue, for multiple reasons. I truly believe the motives are pure and the effort is to ensure long-term viability – especially as the Church moves into more and more areas with widespread poverty.
Old Timer wrote:
Seriously different universes.
Agree it is not the same thing. Different universes???? Maybe that’s a bit much to protect mormon prophets vs TV evangelists. I could see critics of the LDS church disagreeing it is much different. I don’t know. Do you say this because we assume intentions of the TV evangelist are evil and LDS prophets are pure that puts them in different universes??
Either way…it’s spending a ton of money and wealth on religious efforts, which may be practical and may be efficient use of time…but neither is pure christ-like humble service. Can you see Christ accepting gifts like private wealth to spread the gospel if it was offered? (nibbler…don’t you start telling me that was the purpose of the Rich Man story of donating all he had to follow Christ…
Christ wasn’t asking the Rich Man to give it to him…but to give it away!:lolno: )I can’t see Christ saying that is needed for this gospel work.
Why not take an offer to fly President Hinckley, price out the thousands that offer is worth…and donate that to the hungry suffering people in a community in South America or somewhere and thank the Huntsmans for their generosity?? …When I really think about it… private jets for any church purpose seems excessive to me…owned or borrowed…it’s excessive…when you can spend a couple hundred, fly coach like a humble servant…and maybe take a few extra days to travel around preaching the gospel. What’s the urgency a private jet is needed?
Old Timer wrote:
If another serious depression hits the US or the world, I don’t want the Church to be at risk financially.
Should a serious financial calamity hit the world…church being at financial risk is pretty low on my list of cares, just to be honest. We don’t need more temples. We have sufficient for our needs.
Does God care if we are financially healthy? Church or individually? Or…does He just care what we do with our time and talents to practice living gospel principles?
I think part of the lessons of life is to strive to get some wealth to protect your future and make life easier and help others…but at some point…the test shifts to knowing what to do when you start getting too much. The church might be needing to address the issue of having too much and not knowing what to do with it.
I wonder what the 7 year outlook is for the growth of the church? This past April they stopped reporting member statistics during GC. I get the feeling that this was done because someone, somewhere expects negative growth at some point in the future. Maybe the hope is that by the time that happens it will go relatively (relatively, not completely) unnoticed because now we have a precedent of not reporting during GC. If the church is shrinking, or at the very least not growing quickly, how many more buildings will the church need to build? Of course you have to factor in that the areas that are shrinking are areas in which the church is already established and they are expanding in areas that need infrastructure. That makes it hard to tell just how much would be needed in the funds to account for future growth. All that said, perhaps less money could be spent on malls, office spaces, and buying up Florida and more could be spent on that effort. On the other hand, perhaps malls, office space, and Florida is what it will take to one day close the books on collecting tithing revenues and move towards being self sustained by the business arms of the church.
Old Timer wrote:
I agree completely that finances are a difficult area to keep pure intentions and practices, and I understand the concerns about such a large investment pool, but I also understand an almost obsessive focus on NEVER being in a dire financial situation again – like the LDS Church was for most of its existence. If another serious depression hits the US or the world, I don’t want the Church to be at risk financially. I understand the Biblicl precedent of saving for seven years of famine.
I’m with Heber13 on this point. Maybe the church
needsto be humbled financially every once in a while… just like the rest of us. Maybe they need to fall on lean times… just like the rest of us. That’s what tithing does to many families, it creates lean times, it makes juggling resources difficult. Paying tithing can make or break a family’s ability to save up a rainy day fund/retirement fund of their own. Do families continue to sacrifice their safety net so the church can extend the number of years it can sustain itself out by another year or two? At what point is enough enough? One of the things that stands out to me when I read articles lamenting the overall fall in church attendance (not just LDS church, churches in general). The concern is always for the churches, rarely for the individuals… but the individuals are the church, take care of them and they’ll take care of the church.
Lets say the world does fall on economic hard times, there’s a cycle, it’s bound to happen. Would a wealthy church turn her members into beggars? Would the lean times make the church more tightfisted than it currently is? Would it be horrible if the church had to scale growth back for a few years or even a decade? Or would a church hurting for liquid assets turn on its members to ensure its own survival, so it’s best if the church remain well fed at all times?
I’m struggling with this one. If things get so bad that it impacts the church that heavily that means things are bad enough to affect the members far worse. At that point, why is the church’s well being a priority?
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