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Jesus of Nazareth led a group that had a Treasurer as one of its top leaders. There is an old theory that Judas “betrayed” Jesus in order to help finance the ministry, with Jesus’ consent, assuming he wouldn’t be convicted of anything and that an arrest and release would broaden his appeal to the masses and to disgruntled potential funders. Jesus of Nazareth lived for three years, while traveling with his top leadership, without a steady job – and they left their jobs to be with him. Someone other than Jesus obviously funded the ministry.
As the Church moves into Africa and more widely into Asia, the financial needs are going to increase greatly. If depression hits Europe and America, Fast Offering assistance needs will soar.
I’m not arguing that any particular reserve / investment amount is ideal or that a particular amount is excessive. That decision is WAY above my pay grade. What I am saying is that I can understand very easily the belief that the Church needs enough financial resources to survive a serious, lengthy, economic downturn.
I also understand the stark difference between rich individuals providing things like already-owned transportation to help make extensive travel easier and safer, and asking regular, common followers to cough up millions to do it. When GA’s travel on commercial flights, they usually don’t even pay for first-class.
Yes, overall financial issues are important, but motive and intent are just as if not more important. I know the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, but I don’t see this situation as a road to Hell. Given what I can envision easily in the future, I am okay personally focusing on what I am certain are good motives, sound fiscal practices, and righteous intent in a time of global uncertainty and volatility.
My $0.02 on the church’s wealth in 3 words, “It’s their money.” I detach myself from feeling ownership of the church’s money. Yes, I do believe that the church leadership act as best they can as “wise stewards” in caring for church assets and growing them that the church may be prepared for whatever disaster/ opportunity the church may face in the future. Very likely, no individual is corruptly lining their pockets. Virtually all of them are making personal sacrifices for the good of the organization.
But this to me seems like a significant departure from the prosperity gospel. From Wikipedia:
Quote:Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, or the gospel of success) is a religious belief among some Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one’s material wealth. Prosperity theology views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver security and prosperity.
Whether a church that teaches the prosperity gospel is poor or excessively wealthy does not necessarily change the teaching.
IOW, What the church does with the money I donate was not my issue. Believing that
God would do certain things for me in exchangefor my donation was my issue. I think I’m pretty much in the same place as you Roy. I do willingly give to the church and having done so what they do with it is up to them. If I truly did care that it was only spent on certain things then I would either not give or would give to only specific funds. That’s actually why I don;t contribute to the local United Way campaign. I choose to give to organizations I wish to donate to, while I would not ordinarily donate to some organizations United Way divvies up the money to. And likewise, I did and do take issue with certain “blessings” promised by keeping the law of tithing or any other commandment (any of which could be included as part of the prosperity gospel). The belief that God would make everything right because I was doing what I was supposed to do was indeed the crux of my own faith crisis and I always cringe when I hear others testify about blessings of being obedient.
Old Timer wrote:Jesus of Nazareth lived for three years, while traveling with his top leadership, without a steady job – and they left their jobs to be with him. Someone other than Jesus obviously funded the ministry.
How much funding did the ministry really need while Jesus was around? I mean, nobody needed gas money or cab fare, no TV crews to pay, and you’ve got Mr Loaves and Fishes Himself to handle the food.
NightSG wrote:
Old Timer wrote:Jesus of Nazareth lived for three years, while traveling with his top leadership, without a steady job – and they left their jobs to be with him. Someone other than Jesus obviously funded the ministry.
How much funding did the ministry really need while Jesus was around? I mean, nobody needed gas money or cab fare, no TV crews to pay, and you’ve got Mr Loaves and Fishes Himself to handle the food.
Bed and board – that’s it.
I can’t calculate an amount, but even bed and board gets expensive when you are talking about at least a couple dozen people – and probably more (Jesus, 12 lead disciples, other lesser disciples [including at least a few women], etc.). We have sanitized it to the point of making it an easy thing, but at least 13 people (and probably quite a few more) were involved full-time.
Remember, they had a Treasurer. You don’t need a Treasurer if you aren’t collecting donations and spending a fairly good amount of money. There also are hints that he was currying favor with some rich people, some of whom were objectionable to the establishment. We generally don’t look at the record closely enough, from a purely sociological perspective, to notice things like that.
“Mr. Loaves and Fishes Himself” đ :clap: đ :clap: I think you are off track just a bit. Having a treasurer and needing funds for a group is a different universe from talking about use of private jets for the ministry.
Old Timer wrote:
I can’t calculate an amount, but even bed and board gets expensive when you are talking about at least a couple dozen people – and probably more (Jesus, 12 lead disciples, other lesser disciples [including at least a few women], etc.).We have sanitized it to the point of making it an easy thing, but at least 13 people (and probably quite a few more) were involved full-time.
Remember, they had a Treasurer. You don’t need a Treasurer if you aren’t collecting donations and spending a fairly good amount of money. There also are hints that he was currying favor with some rich people, some of whom were objectionable to the establishment. We generally don’t look at the record closely enough, from a purely sociological perspective, to notice things like that.
You’re thinking in modern terms. Taxation was not as it is today… there was a great deal of barter, and the accommodation would have been extremely basic. At warmer times of year they wouldn’t have even slept indoors.
SamBee wrote:You’re thinking in modern terms. Taxation was not as it is today… there was a great deal of barter, and the accommodation would have been extremely basic. At warmer times of year they wouldn’t have even slept indoors.
Not sure what the overnight lows were like there, but He/they did have a significant number of followers who would almost certainly be willing to put an Apostle or two up for the night at little or no charge. Plus, it was prime time for healing miracles. If a guy stops by, heals your wisdom teeth and fixes your nearsightedness with a brief prayer and asks to crash on the couch for a couple days, are you going to say no?
The beds could be boards, rocks, straw etc, not necessarily high rent. Plus a lot of them seem to have scattered themselves about. If the church is teaching us this principleQuote:Mark and Jill, while breaking away for the first time from their young children for a mini-vacation, were lured into having a free lunch (where have we heard that before?) if they would sit through a âbriefâ sales presentation. It turned out to be a two-hour sales pitch on all the advantages of owning a time-share they could use through the rest of their lives. Seeing only the fun they would experience as they chose from the wide selection of destinations (tropical hideaways, challenging ski trips, and elegant international resorts â you get the idea) they signed up. Soon they found themselves committed for a payment plan of a couple of hundred dollars a month over the next ten years.
Perhaps we might be sitting here thinking of how foolish they were but, in reflecting upon the many enticing invitations we have had in our lives, havenât we seen ourselves making unwise commitments with our money?
How about this one: Mike, while running an errand to pick up some items at a nearby superstore, decided to take his 8 year-old son, Eric, along. Soon Mike found himself listening to his son begging for a new bike to replace the very usable one they picked up at the garage sale last year. Feeling guilty because his parents gave him only hand-me-downs, he felt justified in buying the new bike by telling himself that his kids wonât have to keep riding used bikes.
These examples can pose some very interesting questions for us: âWhy do we spend our hard earned money on things that we find ourselves not really needing?â A very good question. âDid they âneedâ to make these purchases?â Obviously not. âWas what they decided to buy sufficient for their needs?â Probably not.
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Some of us have âacquired much . by the hand of (our) industryâ (Alma 10:4), and many have been given much through the blessings of the Lord. We may, at times, have forgotten the source of the blessings. We must be careful of what we do with what we have been given. If we spend these resources unwisely, mounting evidence will accumulate â verifying the real intents of our hearts, our desires to serve God and our fellowmen.
…well…
it’s just a bit hard to swallow the fact a private jet is needed…and they are practicing what they preach with that one isolated example.
I’d say for the most part…the church is super frugal and is going to always be ultra conservative with spending anything because they try to practice what they preach. Which is good…because they’re telling families to be careful about little vacations and bicycles…so…they should be setting the example if they are using such minor spending examples.
Prosperity as a blessing from God can be twisted to justify selfishness. Poverty to avoid working as a badge of humility can be an excuse.
There is middle ground to work for what you want in life and enjoy the results of good honest labor, being willing to sacrifice and help others and not be obsessed with materialism, and keep your heart in check.
That seems to be what I hear at church.
The focus seems to be where the heart is, and what we value. Prosperity in and of itself isn’t the issue. But what we do with or without it.
I frankly don’t think God is getting involved to bless some people or not. Life just has cause and effect, and sometimes luck and misfortune. I’m not thinking God would care if his church was dirt poor and had to meet outside to hold conference, or have billions and build gigantic assembly halls.
Why would he care either way? All good things come from God. And with greater blessings come greater responsibility.
Quote:You’re thinking in modern terms.
No, I’m not. I have studied this exact topic at a well-known divinity school, based on the economics of the time. There is a common misconception that Jesus’ ministry was a totally finance-free enterprise, devoid of any reliance on fund-raising, so to speak. It wasn’t.
My point is that Jesus obviously relied on contributions to fund his ministry, that he obviously needed someone to keep track of the finances, and he obviously associated with wealthy people who were outside the orthodox power structure of the time.
I’m not at all sure Jesus or Paul (perhaps a better example, with his extensive travel) would have turned down an offer of “modern transportation” from a wealthy follower in order to facilitate travel to accomplish their ministerial goals. In fact, I would argue that there is a very good chance at least some of Paul’s travel was “donated/funded” by a well-to-do / wealthy follower. I also am positive neither Jesus nor Paul demanded their followers donate money specifically to purchase a private mode of transportation they would buy and own personally – and, certainly, not four of them. There is a huge difference between those two situations.
Judaea was a very different place back then. You could actually live off the land, and sleep in certain spaces. How much would Jesus have paid for his time in the desert? Nothing. He took the clothes on his back and maybe some tools. I think most support they received was in kind and not financial. This gives some excellent examples of what the Prosperity Gospel is at the extreme, as well as how easy it is to establish a church as a tax-exempt organization. It includes a direct explanation of the idea of donating “seeds” (by televangelists) and a promise they will grow. In places, it is disgusting and frightening. I love the humor, but it might not be for everyone. The language is a bit rough for some people, but it is a good explanation:
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