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I just returned from one of those area Stake conference telecast deals. Much of it I liked. The present format is half Stake Conference, the other half a regional broadcast with four GA types speaking.
My SP guy spoke on Jesus, and his power of serving and giving even in his darkest hours.
Then you sing a rest hymn and they transition to the live from Salt Lake Broadcast.
Nothing terribly egregious came out. I could find plenty of positive take aways. 2 speakers with accents. Christ References from the bible and BofM.
It was all going pretty good. Elder Kearon was up to bat. (He is a personal favorite of mine). Very Christ centered message about the Divine knowing the big and small pains in our lives. That we all our God’s children.
Then he dropped it. The Rescue Part 2. Focused largely on those Melchizedek Priesthood members who have left the fold. Under the new plan, it’s to be a more nuanced approach. Not an assignment. Or pressure. Just friendship, connection, service opportunities. The idea is that most who have left have forgotten the sweet spirit of the Holy Ghost. Once it is rekindled they will be back. For those who may never have had a firm testimony, this may give them what they had missed before.
His beautiful English accent couldn’t assuage me. I think befriending people is lovely. Just don’t make it an ulterior motive. Christ never did. Second, the Rescuer’s have a part to play in the pain. If you want people back find out how to sincerely say sorry. It’s not lack of firm testimony here. It’s policy’s, practices, candor, and more – that deserves to be aired and understood.
Now I am not a happy camper.
I couldn’t even listen to Todd Christofferson. He may have said some nice stuff, but I was wound up.
I wish we would drop the Rescue Plan – both of them.
This sounds like a retooled plan we had here last year. The premise and focus were the same – some MP holders had essentially forgotten their testimonies (particularly those who had served missions and were sealed to their spouse). The idea was to remind them of these experiences by asking them about them. The retooled part is that here it was supposed to be much more direct, using a missionary as a companion and the commitment model. I don’t want to say “I told you so” (OK, yes I do 😈 ) but I did as gently as possible tell them it wouldn’t work – and it didn’t. Why wouldn’t it work? Because those of us who have served missions (especially) or have just been around long enough know the Jedi mind tricks, and we all know when we’re a project. And some of it seemed even like it was a bit like bullying to me (some of the “invitation” stuff was on the forceful side). I think the plan as you describe it Mom recognizes that error, tones it down a bit, and may have some ever so slight chance of working a bit better on some people – but people are still going to know when they’re a project or part of a program. Don’t get me wrong, I think sincere friendship, connection and service would be very successful – but not when it’s a program. Pharisees gonna Pharisee.The project aspect annoys me big time. The double annoyance is the fake apology part. I remember when my kids would be told to apologize to a sibling. They would give this flippant, “sorry.”
No sincerity or ownership.
This plan feels that way to me. I know I shouldn’t be surprised. But I wanted to jump up and shout, “Let it go”. Fine you lost some. Suck it up. If you’re not interested in a real dialogue, then just quit. Keep busy with the troops you have.
Our semi-regional conference theme was deference to the leaders. It wasn’t really about that but the stories shared had a strong undercurrent. I won’t get into it here, this is your thread. It sounds like a better rescue than most. The ultra orthodox are going to believe that people that don’t show up to church are genuinely in need of rescuing (meanwhile I wish someone would rescue me
fromchurch, not to church
I think “the rescue” is hard on everyone. For the people that are being rescued but don’t feel like they need to be rescued from anything to the overworked members that have to shoehorn it into their schedules and feel guilty if the fruits aren’t apparent.
But I will say that every once in a while there’s that one person that is rescued. Some people really do need it.
One thing does stand out to me though. They’re after MP holders. You know, the very people they need to maintain a minimum number of to have stakes and wards. It feels a little self serving. Let’s rescue the people that the church needs. Do women even get mentioned in these meetings?
NIbbler – You are the best. Don’t ever take your talent from us. Feel free to deflect. I need to know that the field is being plowed differently. It’s how I keep my chin up.
I bet if they just gave women the priesthood, this wouldn’t be quite the same problem. It’d stop alienating a good chunk of the membership andit doubles the leadership base. I’ve opposed the “casserole patrol” rescue mission since before my FC- probably on my mission. And considering that my trajectory may soon put me on the receiving end of that… Yeah. Not sure how I’m going to deal with that. Probably with sarcasm.
If church leaders knew what it is like to go through a faith crisis, I don’t think they’d be so gung ho about rescue. People who were once strong in the church and leave do so not because of a desire to sin but because they realize that the church is not what makes them happy. They realize that it was the message making their life better, yet they feel betrayed by the messenger. The “wanting to sin” could maybe be said about teenagers, but I think it’s more because the church fails to properly teach them about Jesus and his Atonement and they don’t feel compelled by “the church is true.” In some cases, people are shamed into self-loathing because of the excessive talk of exact obedience. Even all
thatis a gross oversimplification and overgeneralization. People leave the church for tons of different reasons, not just from being offended. Faith crises aren’t really about petty things like horses in the BoM. The church trains people to see inactives as ‘broken’ and that they need to be fixed with MOAR CHURCH! If church worked for them, you wouldn’t need to ‘rescue’ them. They would do it themselves. If people don’t keep buying your product, it’s because your product is bad, not because your sales tactics were ineffective.
Our SP showed up today and he wanted to talk. He talked about how his testimony is so so firm and based 100% on feelings and there is nothing anybody could say to him that would change his mind in the least. OK. Pretty clear I had better not go to him for any of my questions. Then just to top that off he really lays it on how he is upset that people that once new the gospel, especially men, and they stopped reading the scriptures and praying daily are just terrible people – while my wife is sitting right next to me and I can just assume she is just eating this up.
It sounds like we were at the same conference! I agree that there were lots of good things said, even things that I really needed to hear today. And then… I had a really similar reaction when this “plan” was introduced. Like a punch in the gut. I was glad it was dark in the room so the people around me couldn’t see my probably-stormy expression. It did also bother me that this seemed to be about only priesthood holders with the occasional added afterthought of “their families”. Honestly, I kind of tuned out at that point as well, trying to hold on to the messages of love and Christ. Also, my kids spilled their box of gel pens that clattered all over the gym floor right on cue. Sometimes it’s convenient to have a pint-sized distraction. Processing this afterwards, I am feeling just a bit more charitable, though I still do and always will loathe the friends-with-an-agenda thing. I can see that for many LDS, much of my family included, the gospel truly does bring joy and peace. It would follow that it would be a Christlike desire to help bring that joy and peace (back) into someone’s life. From that perspective, why wouldn’t someone want that in their life? It is a great blessing and the way to exaltation! Our church, and many good souls within it, are often just not great with nuance and complexity.
Also on the up side, if members take the message to heart and truly do try to befriend those who have left, maybe our collective ability to understand and love people with different experiences and perspectives can be broadened. I can dream, right?!
So, it was 7/8 good-excellent and 1/8 bad. My advice: Anything that is 87.5% good is good. Focus on that simple fact.
Quote:I remember when my kids would be told to apologize to a sibling. They would give this flippant, “sorry.”
No sincerity or ownership.
I understand what you are saying and agree to a large part. On the other hand, our current POTUS never learned that skill. In other words, even if “sorry” is not sincere, it’s still better to teach your kids than not.
Thanks Everyone – After mulling this for a day, I realize this one is going to be a personal sort through issue. Even though it was a 7/8 good day, the 1/8 is really troubling me. What I am concluding though is that it’s not just the “being a project part”. It’s the unfairness to the other side. To leaders and standard church members who have no idea why someone left. Yes some may just want social connectedness. Most won’t.
2 scenarios then come into play. I have experienced both.
#1 – The bridge everyone is hoping to build only gets more damaged. Whether it’s gung ho missionaries or well meaning members – the person who wants to be heard won’t be heard.
#2 – (I have seen this twice in my family), the well meaning still devout member works so diligently, sincerely to bring back the lost sheep. In the process they get caught in the cross hairs of their own faith crisis. Now they are the project. They are the estranged family member. They become the nuanced (or even angry post mo), stuck going to church, having an ucler or worse. Eventually leaving and the whole tide turns on them.
Which brings me back to the responsibility of the people asking for the project to be performed.
Years ago I renewed my CPR cert. During the class the instructor repeated the admonition. If you get to a scene and have forgotten how to do CPR – don’t try it. AND don’t let someone else who isn’t certified or trained do it perform it. Doing it incorrectly can cause more damage. It’s better to keep the patient warm, call 911 and wait for professionals.
If they really want these families back – the professionals need to come in. Stop passing the responsibility onto the trainee’s. You have given them no information. No clues. No skill set. And if the professionals don’t have the necessary knowledge – then drop it until you do.
Thanks for listening. I won’t rant on any more. Hopefully this little idea will get lost in the weeds of other church stuff and drift away. Who knows. I do appreciate your insights and input. I will work this through eventually.
Beefster wrote:
I’ve opposed the “casserole patrol” rescue mission since before my FC- probably on my mission.
I personally love receiving casseroles during hardship. #1 I get a casserole!
:thumbup: #2 I feel that the casserole represents the love and concern of our ward community. It is perhaps one of the most tangible manifestations of the community “giving back” for your contributions.Old Timer wrote:
Anything that is 87.5% good is good.
Solid B+
Tica wrote:
Processing this afterwards, I am feeling just a bit more charitable, though I still do and always will loathe the friends-with-an-agenda thing. I can see that for many LDS, much of my family included, the gospel truly does bring joy and peace. It would follow that it would be a Christlike desire to help bring that joy and peace (back) into someone’s life. From that perspective, why wouldn’t someone want that in their life? It is a great blessing and the way to exaltation! Our church, and many good souls within it, are often just not great with nuance and complexity.
I second this. I knew a woman who was hurt because her LDS friends seemed to melt away when she became inactive. Another woman who had served with the first in a presidency at the time was indignant at the suggestion, “That is just not true! I visited her two or three times to invite her back to church.” This second woman was being genuine in her concern – she just could not understand how that is different than friendship.
I also believe that a number of individuals find making friends within church circles is a form of shorthand for compatibility. DW is very reluctant to invest in making friends outside of the church because church members have so many similar life experiences and cultural understanding as to just “get it.” When two friends are both TBM they mutually support each others worldview, sacrifices, and lifestyle choices. If one of those friends stops attending church that implicit and explicit support of the Mormon path is on shaky ground. Some will go into rescue mode – trying to help their friend and reclaim the relationship as it once was. Some will keep their distance – either out of awkwardness or an intent to quarantine the doubts of the former friend. Some others will continue the friendship with no expectations. IMO this last approach is the path that requires the greatest amount of spiritual and emotional maturity. I feel that many people are just not that capable – their emotional and spiritual reserves are just not deep enough to really stand with and support a friend during faith transition.
Beefster wrote:
And considering that my trajectory may soon put me on the receiving end of that… Yeah. Not sure how I’m going to deal with that. Probably with sarcasm.
Continuing from my last point, If I (who have gone through an FC) am the more aware in the situation then it falls to me to be the most responsible. I would do this by being a good host to visitors in my home. I would smile and nod at the appropriate moments. I would build on common beliefs to the extent possible. I would express vague hope, humility, and willingness to change towards positive goals. I might deflect or gently rebuff commitments that will likely not work for me at the present time. I would part with friendly words and a good handshake (or hug if appropriate).
mom3 wrote:
#1 – The bridge everyone is hoping to build only gets more damaged. Whether it’s gung-ho missionaries or well meaning members – the person who wants to be heard won’t be heard.#2 – (I have seen this twice in my family), the well meaning still devout member works so diligently, sincerely to bring back the lost sheep. In the process they get caught in the cross hairs of their own faith crisis. Now they are the project. They are the estranged family member. They become the nuanced (or even angry post mo), stuck going to church, having an ucler or worse. Eventually leaving and the whole tide turns on them.
I can see both options if/when my belief divergence becomes known. My husband follows me in a lot of things, for a variety of reasons that I don’t fully understand. Like when I go to church, my husband is more inclined towards going to church. If I am not capable of going to church, he stays home with me instead of going to church anyways.
mom3 wrote:
Which brings me back to the responsibility of the people asking for the project to be performed.Years ago I renewed my CPR cert. During the class the instructor repeated the admonition. If you get to a scene and have forgotten how to do CPR – don’t try it. AND don’t let someone else who isn’t certified or trained do it perform it. Doing it incorrectly can cause more damage. It’s better to keep the patient warm, call 911 and wait for professionals.
If they really want these families back – the professionals need to come in. Stop passing the responsibility onto the trainees. You have given them no information. No clues. No skill set. And if the professionals don’t have the necessary knowledge – then drop it until you do.
This sounds like great advice. But it begs the question “who are the faith crises professionals”?
The main issue I see that upper leadership would have to admit that there is a problem with enough numbers to warrant intervention and training our bishops and branch presidents to a) see these people without judging them, b) give them the information to access the help they need, and c) trust the members enough that getting faith crisis/faith transition assistance doesn’t mean the person would leave the church.
1.
The Scholars: I find it hard to believe that leadership would point those in a faith crisis/transition to the “Stages of Faith” without prompting – to do so, the leadership would also need to give credence that this worth studying and knowing about… I just don’t see leadership sending people to the internet with their questions (not that the people won’t go to the internet to find information – it’s out there) 2.
The Disbelievers/Questioners (Known)(Who have left the church):Somehow I just don’t see leadership sending people to people who have left the church. 3.
The Disbelievers/Other Believers/Questioners (Unknown)(StayLDS in various degrees): While leadership might send people individually to individuals who are here, it’s leadership roulette whether it happens, whether the leaders know whom to send individuals, and also hazardous to those who aren’t TBM. We have whole posts about protecting ourselves and our families in the middle of a faith transition – so we aren’t visible. NOTE: I don’t feel like a “professional” anyways – if I have to find a definition I will tentatively go with “Survivor” – though description might have greater or lesser mileage anyways. It’s not that I don’t want to help people – I do – I just don’t want to rock myself out of the boat (intellectually or socially) if I put myself in a vulnerable enough place to do so.
4.
Professionals: There are a handful of professional counselors who handle these issues – but you have to know where to look, and I just don’t see LDS Services increasing their number or higher levels of leadership training lower levels of leadership on how to refer them. 5.
“The Missionary Couple”: I love missionary couples and applaud what they do. However, I am not sure the branches and wards are ready for missionary couples to tackle this area. It compounds leadership roulette with people raised in previous generations and skill sets – some of them may be fabulous and just what is needed – but the previous generation thinking and skill set leads me to believe that it would hard for them to understand the issues and how they resonate with people. By and large, I get the heebie-jeebies when I think of missionary couples being assigned this area of interest. However, the water does eventually reach the end of the rows. Changes are happening in leadership. More importantly, issues are being talked about and pondered with some degree of honesty. The next generations are voting with their feet, and that is being noticed and mentioned. StayLDS does exist! There are similar movements out there getting heard.
mom3 wrote:
Thanks for listening. I won’t rant on any more. Hopefully this little idea will get lost in the weeds of other church stuff and drift away. Who knows. I do appreciate your insights and input. I will work this through eventually.
I think it is a great idea – I just wish that we were ready for squads of people trained in what a faith crisis/transition looks like who had the resiliency to “mourn with those that mourn” in this area.
Roy wrote:
I also believe that a number of individuals find making friends within church circles is a form of shorthand for compatibility. DW is very reluctant to invest in making friends outside of the church because church members have so many similar life experiences and cultural understanding as to just “get it.” When two friends are both TBM they mutually support each others worldview, sacrifices, and lifestyle choices. If one of those friends stops attending church that implicit and explicit support of the Mormon path is on shaky ground. Some will go into rescue mode – trying to help their friend and reclaim the relationship as it once was. Some will keep their distance – either out of awkwardness or an intent to quarantine the doubts of the former friend. Some others will continue the friendship with no expectations. IMO this last approach is the path that requires the greatest amount of spiritual and emotional maturity. I feel that many people are just not that capable – their emotional and spiritual reserves are just not deep enough to really stand with and support a friend during faith transition.
I was “blessed” in that I already have a hard time finding people compatible with me enough that I welcome most people into my circle if they want to be there and my life is blessed because of their presence. I know if my faith transition comes out that I will lose attachments to women in the branch – and that is not devastating to me (painful yes). I fear more for my daughter, because it would be harder to enlarge her circle – but it can be done. My closest friendship is that with my mother – and she has other children who have left for a variety of reasons. I know it would cause her sorrow, but I have faith that she would still love me – she has loved her other children who have left the church after all.
Roy wrote:
Continuing from my last point, If I (who have gone through an FC) am the more aware in the situation then it falls to me to be the most responsible. I would do this by being a good host to visitors in my home. I would smile and nod at the appropriate moments. I would build on common beliefs to the extent possible. I would express vague hope, humility, and willingness to change towards positive goals. I might deflect or gently rebuff commitments that will likely not work for me at the present time. I would part with friendly words and a good handshake (or hug if appropriate).
For what it is worth, my R.S. president chose to give me an extra non-member sister on my list of Visit Teachee friends to be a support person for. She specifically chose only me (not my companion) and made it clear that I was to form the relationship so that the non-member sister felt supported if she needed additional support.
I look at my job in life as to be other people’s loyal sidekick. If they want to better themselves in some way (be nicer to their kids, dump a bad habit, know about some unique challenge I know something about) I find time to help them and cheer them on and celebrate with them.
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