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I posted something on my personal blog today and want to bump up this thread by adding the content of today’s post here: “Are Ordinances Necessary Works or a Gracious Gift?” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/04/are-ordinances-necessary-works-or.html Quote:Some people claim ordinances are necessary “works” – because God said we must perform them, and because these ordinances will be done for all. If they will be done for all, can we take credit for performing them now? In other words, we believe that God is going to ensure that the ordinances get done, no matter that we will never be able to reconstruct our genealogical records well enough to do it on our own. Therefore, it is going to take miraculous intervention on His part for us to perform the ordinances – meaning even that is not necessary for US to do them on our own. The completion of the commandment is done through His grace.
I believe DEEPLY in the concept of eternal, saving ordinances, but I see them as “necessary” for US – a physical, visible, tangible token or sign of our determination and faith – an outward manifestation of our inner commitment. I believe they are necessary not for some checklist in the Book of Life, but rather to put our actions in harmony with our feelings and beliefs – to marry the physical with the spiritual in a real way – to embed our beliefs in practice – to be true “fruits” of our faith. Temple ordinances are a way to continually affirm, in a very physical way, that we truly are willing to turn our hearts to our fathers and, by extension, all God’s children – not just those with whom we currently share this planet. I see them as a powerfully humbling framework that changes our very attitudes and perspectives in a way that merely intellectual or spiritual things simply cannot.
Does getting dunked in water miraculously cleanse me? Perhaps and perhaps not, but
I KNOW it gives me an actual, physical experience which I can “remember”– that can form the foundation of my attempts to model and emulate and become like Christ. Likewise, does my getting dunked miraculously cleanse someone else? Perhaps and perhaps not, but I KNOW it gives me an actual, physical experience which I can “remember”(especially through regular reenactment) – that can keep me focused on humbly and symbolically bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man – that can keep me from the natural arrogance of focusing strictly on myself. Quote:unfortunately, the celestial room is the only place besides the chapel for any sort of contemplation and you can’t get there without going through a session
Just noticed this – I don’t believe this is technically correct. Any of our readers or admins been temple workers and care to elaborate? I believe you can go the CR without going through a session. I’m pretty sure I know people who have.
The temple doesn’t just allow people to come to the temple and go to the celestial room. Typically patrons attend an endowment session to be permitted into the celestial room. However, exceptions can be made for patrons who come to do sealings or initiatories. They can probably be escorted into the celestial room by a worker if they ask and dress in the proper clothing. The general rule is that you have to come to do ordinances in order to enter the celestial room. A friend and I once showed up at a temple that has sessions hourly and we only got there about 5 minutes before the session was scheduled to start. But they had started a session early that time so we missed it and we couldn’t wait for the next one. A worker offered to have us get dressed and escort us to the celestial room to spend some time there. We came to do ordinances but even though we didn’t we were permitted into the celestial room. But this was rare.
Yes, the general rule is that if you come to do ordinances, you can enter the Celestial Room without having to go through the veil. Generally, that is done after the ordinances, but it can be done prior to them – espcially in the smaller temples that don’t have chapels or waiting rooms. I have given up Temple Mormonism. I function as a cultural Mormon though. I teach love of Jesus to my grandchildren. I have a personal relationship with my Savior and call upon Him frequently. The beauty of the earth has become my temple. I reflect on the ideals on Christ. Tomorrow my oldest granddaughter will marry in a California LDS temple. I will supervise her younger siblings who cannot attend the service, on the temple grounds. They have no recourse but to stay out. I though, made an adult choice to stay out. I will stand under the beautiful blue skies & spring beauty of God’s green earth. If I live fifteen more years, I’ll miss at least ten more weddings of my grandkids. I brought my children up in Latter-day Saintism, so I blame no one. It hurts, but I have a Bridge over troubled waters, it is enough. curt wrote:Okay, here is something else. Nothing more sets the church apart from mainstream Christianity than our temples and the work we engage in there.
I agree! I think it is marvelous that we have a doctrinally functional mystery school integrated within our religion. No other Christian church (that I know of) has that.
There are many mystery traditions here in the West, but most of these are related (and oriented) primarily through the occult paradigm. Some of these are the Golden Dawn, the Builders of the Adytum(BOTA), the Rosicruicians, alchemy, theosophy and gnosticism. If you look at our world as being divided between those with secular/atheistic world views and those with faith/mythic/magic world views, then these groups are as profoundly in the latter category as people like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens are in the former. In a sense, they balance each other.
I think both paradigms are essential for human normalcy. After considerable study, I find that the occult is a bogeyman with little true threat for any reasonable, thinking person. And many, many threads of truth. That they are primarily mythic or subjective truths bothers me not a bit. Sure, they used to, but I got over it when I realized the who/what/where/why/how of it.
curt wrote:We are taught, and we believe, that sacred works are performed there.
Exactly. The efficacy of this is manifest eventually after [years or decades of] our faithful participation. If we don’t believe it is ‘real’, then there is still a positive effect via our subconscious minds, as long as our conscious minds don’t sabotage the entire affair. THAT is *real* cognitive dissonance.
curt wrote:How do we who have serious doubts about the church continue to participate in these rituals?
The downside:
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might
win by fearing to attempt.
— William Shakespeare,
Measure for Measure, Act 1
The upside:
“To refuse to doubt, think about or question what you are told
is to miss an opportunity to talk to God”
— Father Leo Booth
The annoying truth:
“The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and
the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
The uplifting truth:
“Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of
humility. It is only when we admit that we don’t know that we
are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange
way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer
fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things
should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual
process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open
mind is capable of hearing God.”
— Andy Piereder
curt wrote:They have changed over time, as we now know.
“now”? I guess that’s something new for you. I first noticed changes in 1990, and then informed myself out of curiosity on the other changes from there.
curt wrote:But even if that can be explained as a result of continuing revelation, how do I as an LDS member, with doubts, continue in temple work?
I try not to assume that I do or even should understand the temple experience, until God clues me in. That’s really worked well for me. Patience.
curt wrote:I am finding this a very trying part of my lived experience as a questioner of the faith. I believe that I need to continue such work, and I do, because what else do I have? But it is becoming more and more problematic for me.
I truly don’t understand that mindset. I appreciate questioning. I love thinking, puzzling things out. Life IS. If we understand anything, it’s a bonus. Maybe it’s as simple as “I don’t have trust issues” or “I love the masonic tradition”. I dunno.
Interesting comments and quotes I have held a temple recommend off and on for – well forever – but I haven’t attended the temple in twelve years. It just doesn’t work for me. Part of the problem is I cannot answer those questions the way I was taught my whole life – and I have struggled to rid myself of that guilt. Yes, this site has certainly helped with that dilema, and i think I will be able to go back soon – but I still struggle attending. It almost seems disrespecful to me—I know and love some of those people who have bought into the whole system 100%, and they know I have not. Some of those people would consider my attending to be a mockery.
😳 I am in quite a conundrum. I have to keep a recommend – to keep my church callings – to keep the branch “functional” and have a place to partake of the sacrament (which I wholehearted believe in) – so my wife and three kids (10, 12, 14 year olds) will have the benefits/blessings of church association that I was fortunate to have growing up. I do get grilled often about it – why I don’t go if I hold a TR. I like what Brain said earlier. “Temple attendance is not mandatory” – even if holding a recommend sometimes is.
“Temple attendance is not mandatory” – even if holding a recommend sometimes is.” I totally agree with the above, but my stake president really has a different take on this (my bishop as well). We are not only encouraged, but browbeaten if we don’t attend. A minimum number of visits is suggested and phone calls by priesthood leaders can follow up. It reminds me of how Proposition 8 was handled here in California (just saying).
George wrote:“Temple attendance is not mandatory” – even if holding a recommend sometimes is.”
I totally agree with the above, but my stake president really has a different take on this (my bishop as well). We are not only encouraged, but browbeaten if we don’t attend. A minimum number of visits is suggested and phone calls by priesthood leaders can follow up. It reminds me of how Proposition 8 was handled here in California (just saying).
Yeah, I hear ya George. I got to the point where I would purposely NOT get a TR just so folks would back off and leave me alone. Didn’t work – then they just ASSUMED that I was unworthy to get one and pestered me about “getting my life in order.” IMO, TBM just cannot comprehend why a person would, 1. not wish to get a recommend and go to the temple, and 2. when they do have a TR, why they wouldn’t use it.
The other problem I encountered, is everybody kept asking me, “why I wouldnt go, why won’t you go? you have a TR, why won’t you go on the branch temple trip?” How do you explain it to them? Most TBM don’t understand there are folks like us out here. Either you are a mormon, or you aren’t – black and white. From my experience, TBM don’t consider me, and folks like me “buffet mormons” or “unorthodox mormon”. I think those are terms WE use. From my experience, TBMs, IMO – consider us folk
apostates.Quote:From my experience, TBMs, IMO – consider us folk apostates.
Only if you appear to fight the church. Otherwise, they consider you “less-active”.
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