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It’s not all bad to have no leadership position. When I left my last position on rocky terms, I enjoyed the break — and still do. Plus, there are a lot of things a person can do to serve people in ways that don’t force you to act against/confront doubts and concerns. When I first began having my faith crisis my home teacher and EQ pres. came over and we had some conversation. I had not yet discovered Staylds and was in a state where I felt compelled to talk to nearly anyone who would listen (not in a destructive way but in a rebuilding my assumptive world way). I don’t remember all the things we talked about. I seem to remember questioning the infalability of scripture. He gave an example of driving as far away from the ledge as possible. He defined my process as struggling and for what ever reason I took issue with the use of the term. In the end and after much additional talk he re-affirmed that what I was going through was “struggling” and he seemed to think devotion to scripture reading, prayer, church attendance could cure it. I respect this man and understand that from his perspective he was coming to reclaim me like a lost sheep or coin.
The sad part is that things have since been different between us. Our families used to get together for parades, holiday meals etc. My duaghter has worn their daughter’s hand me down dresses. All of this has since stopped. I don’t know if it is intentional but the result is the same- no more invites to their kids b-day parties and polite/civil but only surface level conversation at church.
I’m sure others have lost much more in being “outed,” but for me this experience offered just a taste. I will choose my battles and “follow the prophet” doesn’t seem to be a battle I can win.
BTW, I complain/express my view to my wife after church and she sometimes asks me why I don’t share this perspective with the teacher/speaker after the meeting. I answer that I don’t want to be labeled a trouble maker.
My thoughts are with you Cwald and Jwald. You are undoubtedly braver than I, please continue to fight the good fight (whatever that means for you and your journey).
Thanks Roy. I’m terrible sad today. I cannot get over it this. I’m right back where I was early October after conference. Costa’s and Oaks’s talks combined, are the most dangerous and damaging message ever giving by apostles in my lifetime. How can MY CHURCH believe this and teach it? If this is the teaching of the church, I would just assume reject it and go to hell with clear conscience – then to go to mormon heaven regretting going against my conscience accepting something believe is not right and truth.
Ray, I know you “defended” conference in October and said this Costa’s talk is all false doctrine – but what now? What can we do? THIS TALK IS NOW OFFICIALLY the doctrine of the COJCOLDS. Whether anyone here believes it or wants to admit it – this is the doctrine of the church. It is “scripture.” Sorry folks, you can deny it all you want -but it is as far the mormon church is concerned. Yes, my stake is crazy, but just read the bloggernacle – I’m not the only one. SPs through out the US are assigning the HC to spread the word – THE 14 FUNDAMENTALS/FOLLOW THE PROPHET…., and Ray – you’re going to get that assignment too, you’re going to be asked to teach the people the 14 fund. of the Prophet. OMG. I know you how you feel about it, I wish you could put your thumb in the dam and stop the flood from happening – but you can’t do it alone. Sorry my friend. Perhaps you can “save” the people in your area – but you cannot protect the rest of us. Best of luck when you’re time comes. I hope it will not shake your faith like it has mine.
Folks – I am so discouraged. I love the church. I love the tribe. Yet, I have lost all faith in it. Why would the Prophet and the First Presidency allow this message to be distributed throughout the world if they didn’t believe it themselves? Why? SWK put his thumb down. Why didn’t Monson? OMG.
Roy wrote:
I’m sure others have lost much more in being “outed,” but for me this experience offered just a taste. I will choose my battles and “follow the prophet” doesn’t seem to be a battle I can win.I’m afraid this battle has been lost for another generation my friend. Perhaps our children will fight it another day?
This is how feel today. Thanks St. Jude from NOM Quote:Wait I can fix this!
Is there a missing piece?
Did I lose it?
Did someone take it?
It’s just broken. God I want this to work, I need this to work.
Every time I think all the pieces are there something turns up
Missing and it stops working again.
It’s late, I’m bruised, I hurt, and I just can’t put it back together.
Sometimes I think if I just walk away for awhile, maybe a light will flicker amongst the pieces. Or maybe God will toss me the instructions that seem to have gone missing.
Maybe I should just accept that it’s never going to get put back together.
Maybe I should just accept that just because I have memories of how great it once worked, those memories aren’t enough to make it work again.
No one is listening. I can call the number on the box for customer service, but all I hear is a recording “your call is important to us, please hang on the line.”
Maybe all the tears and the constant search for missing parts aren’t what makes something work again,
Maybe it’s what makes me shut the door. Turn away, and start putting me back together again.
Sorry Cwald. I don’t know what else to say, except that I understand what you are saying, and I feel for you. The problem … is a problem. Thanks Brian. I truly never understood what JD was talking about in his document about why folks leave, when he said that “they care too much…’ I understand now. I’m not mad. I’m not bitter. I’m just sad. It’s kind of weird really. I just – hurt. cwald wrote:…Costa’s and Oaks’s talks combined, are the most dangerous and damaging message ever giving by apostles in my lifetime.
How can MY CHURCH believe this and teach it?Ray, I know you “defended” conference in October and said this Costa’s talk is all false doctrine – but what now? What can we do? THIS TALK IS NOW OFFICIALLY the doctrine of the COJCOLDS. Whether anyone here believes it or wants to admit it – this is the doctrine of the church. It is “scripture.”…SPs through out the US are assigning the HC to spread the word – THE 14 FUNDAMENTALS/FOLLOW THE PROPHET…., Folks – I am so discouraged. I love the church. I love the tribe. Yet, I have lost all faith in it. Why would the Prophet and the First Presidency allow this message to be distributed throughout the world if they didn’t believe it themselves?Why? SWK put his thumb down. Why didn’t Monson? Personally, I think the root of the problem is that most of the top Church leaders probably do believe these general ideas from the “14 fundamentals” because they are basically just TBMs that have risen up through the ranks based on seniority. Some TBMs eat this stuff up because it is basically like saying we are special and completely right because we have living prophets, authority from God, etc. Reading some of these talks by Monson, Oaks, and Packer all I see is hardcore TBMs talking unless they are really good actors and very dedicated liars because some of the details they come up with are the kind of thing that I would only expect TBMs to think of in most cases.
I know this doesn’t make it any easier to stomach some of these ideas but the way I see it the more they try to push their luck with some of this shameless authoritarianism the more it is going to open peoples’ eyes to the absurdity of it. Sometimes it takes a bit of a shock to get people to notice what they are really saying so maybe for some members the “14 fundamentals” are so outrageous that it will actually help them see the light and start to take more ownership of their own beliefs and choices.
cwald wrote:SWK put his thumb down. Why didn’t Monson?
SWK may have put his thumb down privately to the Q15, but NEVER publicly. If he had then this talk may have never been repeated.
cwald wrote:I’m afraid this battle has been lost for another generation my friend. Perhaps our children will fight it another day?
You bet they will! Kids today are socially aware, opinionated and have access to a wealth of information and truth. They are also free spirits who pride themselves on individuality… and they are definitely NOT SHEEP. They will not stand for this kind of BS thinking. Things WILL CHANGE! (I’m just not sure I can wait the 2 generations it will take to get all the Borgs out of leadership)
cwald I’m glad you can let it all out here at staylds, that realy helps me. I think you are strong and a great example of someone who values truth. The Irony I see IMO is,(Hypothetically speaking), you are claiming that the world is round to those who have been taught that it is flat. It took me a few years to understand, 4 of them in the BR.
A member in my ward about 5 years ago began questioning(pointing out the issues) openly in EQ. The leaders felt it was there responsibility and “Calling” to quiet him, but many of us listened to his logic and in our own minds began to ask the same questions, only looking for the truth. You may be influencing more people than you know, even some that may be opposing you at this time.
Quote:DA wrote…I know this doesn’t make it any easier to stomach some of these ideas but the way I see it the more they try to push their luck with some of this shameless authoritarianism the more it is going to open peoples’ eyes to the absurdity of it.
Sometimes it takes a bit of a shock to get people to notice what they are really saying so maybe for some members the “14 fundamentals” are so outrageous that it will actually help them see the light and start to take more ownership of their own beliefs and choices. DA as I read your post I was thinking the exact same thing!
f4h1
EDIT I just finished listening to Elder Costa’s talk. Wow, a few years ago I probably would have went right along with that line of thinking(scary
😮 ). Now that kind of talk sounds way out there! IMOFatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
Quote:DA wrote…I know this doesn’t make it any easier to stomach some of these ideas but the way I see it the more they try to push their luck with some of this shameless authoritarianism the more it is going to open peoples’ eyes to the absurdity of it.
Sometimes it takes a bit of a shock to get people to notice what they are really saying so maybe for some members the “14 fundamentals” are so outrageous that it will actually help them see the light and start to take more ownership of their own beliefs and choices. DA as I read your post I was thinking the exact same thing!
f4h1
Same here. I’m really glad that ETB was able to preach some of the outlandish things that he did because it was the push I needed to start thinking for myself. I realize that most of what he said was not outlandish, BTW.
Hang in there, cwald. At least you’re not having to tip-toe around your spouse, right?
Cwald, I am sorry you hurt. It does sound like you handled that as gracefully and lovingly as possible… I admire how you focused on what would help the Branch President feel most comfortable instead of busting out all the ammunition of discontent you have in abundance. And I am so glad that your wife is “on your team”; how much of a difference that makes.
And wow, I loved that poem you shared from NOM. I am optimistic, as we have discussed. Here is what I think will happen:
1) old people will continue as they were and die out
2) a large minority (speaking of US here) will continue happy in the Church
3) More and more will leave
4) a larger and larger minority will tap into resources on the internet to find a way to cope and reconcile Mormonism and real life
This will continue until the internet generation takes the helm. Of course, perhaps the internet mormons will remain on the fringes…..
Anyway, I truly admire you and others in this group who find a way to make this beneficial, promising, and damaging religion work for you. I feel so inspired by those who are the change they seek, and as much as possible, live as if the Church were already what they wish it to be. That is what I try to do too.
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