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So many times we get frustrated with the doctrine or the behavior of the church in general. Although both at times give me a headache there is one thing that I find a great benefit from the church. Since I live in Utah I am surrounded by Mormons in my neighborhood, and you can say what you want but they are really good people. They are willing to run to my aid at a moments notice. They are willing to sacrifice their time and resources to alleviate problems or stress in my families life. The last couple of years with my wife’s health issues I would have been at a loss to get everything done by myself. With all the meals that were brought in and the myriad of other things that were done for us I do have a testimony of the goodness of these my neighbors. Sure you here stories of uber TBM’s and leaders trying to manipulate you but that is not my experience with my ward members. They are good people just trying to do their best to help someone in need. I may not agree with them on doctrinal issues all the time but I still love them and the love me. They are fulfilling the second great commandment and to me this is why I stay. Matthew 22
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great acommandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Great thought, Cadence. I don’t live in Utah, but it has generally been my experience with church members as well, their fruits are good.
At times it may seem to me they are at their best when there is a crisis or someone who needs help (lately many have come to my aid, for which I’m grateful to have their love). Sometimes it seems when things are status quo, I see things that frustrate me, but for sure, if I ever need help, there are willing hands and i think the church produces good people…that has been my experience.
Cadence, this too is so very important for me. In fact, living outside of Utah, I have met people that are so kind and loving outside of the LDS church that I have felt humbled by the way they live with so much love, acceptance and kindness for others. This is why I stay, and why I reject the concept that non-mormons have no future in God’s kingdom, I see and feel God working through them so often. f4h1
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Cadence, this too is so very important for me. In fact, living outside of Utah, I have met people that are so kind and loving outside of the LDS church that I have felt humbled by the way they live with so much love, acceptance and kindness for others. This is why I stay, and why I reject the concept that non-mormons have no future in God’s kingdom, I see and feel God working through them so often.
f4h1
Well said. I accept that good people in the church are the fruits of Gods work…and the people outside the church that are good people are evidence of it also. It really all comes back to Cadence’s OP, and that the 2 great commandments are key, however or where ever that may be done. My struggle with church doctrine then becomes understanding the necessity of ordinances when so many will clearly never have them done for them, either in this life or in temples as proxy work, yet have been good people living the 2nd commandment. It is something I just have to let go of and not worry about, I guess. Temple work is a great thought and helps approach the matter…but doesn’t close the deal for me when I start to see how many people will not have the chance for temple work either.Amen brother Cadence. I had a good and positive experience growing up in the Church. I continue to have a positive experience, like you Cadence. Mormons aren’t perfect. I am far far from perfect. But you know what? They’re real good people. The couple of dopes here and there are the exception to the rule, at least in my experience.
I’ll add another recent example. I was visiting my family in Atlanta. I was scheduled to fly back to work Sunday night. We had the first “white Christmas” in 20 years there (It doesn’t snow much). My wife posted something on FaceBook about being worried about driving me to the airport (even though the roads were not that bad). I have not been attending our ward there in 6 months or more due to working in another state. A guy in the ward saw my wife’s FaceBook posting and went out of his way to call up and offer to drive me to the airport — a good 45 min drive each way. How’s that for awesome??!! I was already at the airport, but what a nice thing to offer. Seriously. This brother in that ward is not an anomaly either.
Yep — I’ve said that a number of times — that the quality of the people is something that keeps me going. If the people weren’t good, then it would by REALLY HARD to accept the other stuff. But the fruits of the religion show in their service orientation. It’s one of the positive bi-products of the bedrock gospel principles AND the culture of service which permeates the Church. I echo what has been said. I live in a ward that is truly unbelievable when it comes to serving others. But I also feel strongly about what f4h1 said: Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Cadence, this too is so very important for me. In fact, living outside of Utah,
I have met people that are so kind and loving outside of the LDS church that I have felt humbled by the way they live with so much love, acceptance and kindness for others. This is why I stay, and why I reject the concept that non-mormons have no future in God’s kingdom, I see and feel God working through them so often.f4h1
Good people are every where. And I have been so blessed to have been touched by so many of them.
Quote:Fatherof4husbandof1 » 2010 Dec 26, 02:43
Cadence, this too is so very important for me. In fact, living outside of Utah, I have met people that are so kind and loving outside of the LDS church that I have felt humbled by the way they live with so much love, acceptance and kindness for others. This is why I stay, and why I reject the concept that non-mormons have no future in God’s kingdom, I see and feel God working through them so often.
I third the motion. The numb-skulls who see virtue only in things Mormon, just don’t get it. In the council of heaven everyone except Lucifer & his crew. shouted for joy. They ALL passed their first big test, and would have great opportunities and advancement by coming to earth. Everyone qualified for a physical body, and the opportunity to “fly solo” to see if they would do whatsoever God commanded. While none of us, except Christ, are good at obedience, we are told that even the those who get to the telestial will enjoy more wonder, splendor and joy that we can imagine. BY said if we knew how much better telestial life is is, we would all be committing suicide to get there quicker. (but if we don’t we will get even better just a little bit later). Even the animals are blessed by God to have “joy in the measure of their creation”.
The LDS Church is the only church maintaining that belonging to the “true” church is critical, who also says every man, woman, and child who ever did live on this earth and who ever will live, will sometime in this life or the next have the opportunity to accept the Church and take advantage of its saving ordinances. Furthermore, the
Quote:D&C 130:20-21 says “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.”
That tells me that all the non-Mormons out there who are doing such good things aren’t wasting any time. They are God’s children and will be blessed by him just as he blesses his “chosen ones”. If good people truly need baptism, I believe that it will be just a small clerical detail that God will handle either thru temple work or some other way. Catholics, and most conservative Protestants, Muslims and many others say non-believers are doomed, even if they never had the opportunity in this life. But Mormonism is the only religion that even pretends to explain how God can be just and still have a “one and only true” Church. I’m content to leave the details to him.
Cadence wrote:So many times we get frustrated with the doctrine or the behavior of the church in general. Although both at times give me a headache there is one thing that I find a great benefit from the church. Since I live in Utah I am surrounded by Mormons in my neighborhood, and
you can say what you want but they are really good people.They are willing to run to my aid at a moments notice. They are willing to sacrifice their time and resources to alleviate problems or stress in my families life. The last couple of years with my wife’s health issues I would have been at a loss to get everything done by myself. With all the meals that were brought in and the myriad of other things that were done for us I do have a testimony of the goodness of these my neighbors.Sure you here stories of uber TBM’s and leaders trying to manipulate you but that is not my experience with my ward members. They are good people just trying to do their best to help someone in need. I may not agree with them on doctrinal issues all the time but I still love them and the love me. They are fulfilling the second great commandment and to me this is why I stay.
This general idea is one reason I never took some of the most common criticisms of the Church seriously such as the way some people like to claim that Mormons are going to hell because we allegedly aren’t even Christian. Many Church members always seemed like some of the nicest and most faithful and trustworthy people around. Maybe TBMs believe some things that are wrong but who doesn’t sometimes? I just don’t think you can really fault most active members when it comes to having good intentions and the commitment to honestly try to do what they think is right more often than not.
However, one of my biggest complaints about Church members in general is that it seems like some of this love toward their neighbors is mostly conditional. For example, if active members suddenly change their mind and openly disagree with some of the Church’s doctrines like the WoW or “one trueness” I suspect that they will not experience much love at all but will instead typically be treated with blatant disrespect, intolerance, rejection, etc. Sure members are only human but I think this aspect of the culture (self-righteous indignation toward supposed sinners and shunning “the world”) has become much worse than average and is one of the main reasons the Church has been repeatedly accused of being a cult. It just doesn’t look like a very Christian or remotely ethical way to treat people over a difference of opinions.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:….However, one of my biggest complaints about Church members in general is that it seems like some of this love toward their neighbors is mostly conditional. For example, if active members suddenly change their mind and openly disagree with some of the Church’s doctrines like the WoW or “one trueness” I suspect that they will not experience much love at all but will instead typically be treated with blatant disrespect, intolerance, rejection, etc. ….
Yes, all to often, I’m afraid. From the wisdom of Old-Timer, often we are definitely more intolerant, judgmental, and harder on our own, than our non-member neighbors. This is an issue that I wish the GAs would focus on SPECIFICALLY from the podium at GC. Specifically – and leave all the other mormon doctrine and lingo out of the talk like obedience, temples, missionary work, reactivation and repentance. Just focus on the issue of “blatant disrespect, intolerance and rejection” of
fellow memberswho no longer believe and/or no longer follow all the cultural commandments. Thomas Parkin, who is one of my favorite commenters in the regular Bloggernacle, wrote the following over at By Common Consent today. I read it and thought of the New Year’s Resolution posts here – but then decided it fits really well in this thread: Quote:New Year’s Resolution: Don’t grouch and humbug over other people’s good time quite so much.
I think that’s a pretty good description of part of living the second great commandment – and it’s a motto I really like in relation to how we interact with more traditional members.
Only way to approach it is not to put a harsh on someone’s mellow. cwald wrote:
Yes, all to often, I’m afraid. From the wisdom of Old-Timer, oftenwe are definitely more intolerant, judgmental, and harder on our own, than our non-member neighbors.This is an issue that I wish the GAs would focus on SPECIFICALLY from the podium at GC. Specifically – and leave all the other mormon doctrine and lingo out of the talk like obedience, temples, missionary work, reactivation and repentance. Just focus on the issue of “blatant disrespect, intolerance and rejection” of fellow memberswho no longer believe and/or no longer follow all the cultural commandments. It is because of the “you KNEW and yet you rejected it” mind set. In fact, I have been hit recently with this of late from family members. Because I have “KNOWN” the truth and been through the temple and yet I am simply disregarding it and choosing different (read sinful). That is why they are harder on our own is because they feel like we have rejected what has and is being taught for the more simple and easier thing to do.
But honestly, I don’t know how they will or would see it differently until they have experienced their own faith crisis so they knew that it wasn’t and isn’t easier.
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