The Short Version of what I asked

[Anonymous]

Sorry if one of my other posts was too long. Only LookingHard responded, and gave great feedback. Really interested in your perspective on this…so I will post a short version.

Assume you are a teacher of some youth or adult class on Sunday or during the week. You find your ward was doing a general survey about members feelings about their experience in Sunday class, with feedback aggregated at the adult and youth level only. Teachers or classes are not identified in the survey; respondents only select whether they attend an adult or youth class in the second or third hour, and answer questions about the experience. Respondents do not indicate any personal information, and put their survey in a box, anonymously, after completing it. This is for the purpose of directing Teacher’s Council content, and general improvement of the Sunday experience for everyone.

How would you as a teacher, react to a survey like this, and the results, when aggregated? Would you resent it? Object to it? Embrace it? Think it unusual? Feel like quitting? Think nothing of it?

[Anonymous]

I would love it, and would want it more personalized. But I’m an ENTP who is used to critical feedback because of academic training, and I’ve seen the growth value of such feedback often enough to want to punch through a moderate amount of discomfort.

I can imagine teachers for whom teaching is mostly about being personally uplifted or feeling like they contribute something, who might really hate this. I can also imagine those who are naturally anxious assuming the worst about depersonalized feedback – that anything negative is likely about them.

Maybe you could run the idea past your teachers.

[Anonymous]

Frankly I don’t like it. I think it would be one thing if I were a teacher and sought the feedback myself. Also, since the comments would not be specific to a teacher or class, I would wonder who the feedback is about – and I’d likely liken all the positive feedback to be about me and all the negative feedback to be about the teachers I think are poor (or awful). During my more down times, I’d think they were all about me and/or that the leadership was not pleased with what I am doing. Generally speaking, I’m opposed to “evaluating” unpaid volunteer teachers. I would not be opposed to any feedback presented in teacher council as long as we don’t know who or what class is being referred to and as long as it’s coming from those in attendance (it is a council, after all). If you’re looking for stuff to do in teacher council, get it from the council – the best staff development is that which is relevant and/or requested while the worst is that which is irrelevant and thrust upon us.

One of my kids recently shared something about one of the anonymous feedback things they do at college relative to professors. One of the student comments was that the professor would be better if he stuttered less and that his stuttering was distracting. Besides being incredibly rude, that’s not the kind of feedback the university or professor were looking for. Nevertheless, you’re bound to get that.

[Anonymous]

I think it could be great. You’d have to be careful to not make teachers feel they are being evaluated in any way. The survey would simply be measuring what members experience is, what they are getting out of class, how interested they are, willingness to participate, learning things, etc. If the survey was rolled out as a focus on member experience rather than evaluating teacher effectiveness (even though the results could be used to improve effectiveness), I think it would generally be well received.

[Anonymous]

I personally would hate it. My current calling is bear den leader. It is not the call that was originally given. I started as co-leader for webelos but our boys all had birthdays and graduated to YM. I was asked to be the second adult for bear den. After a few months the bear den leader was given another calling and I was left holding the bag. They did call another brother to help me but he has missed 90% of scout meetings. I hold the meetings in the gym with the door open to lessen the stigma of being alone with the boys. My own son is in the bear den and I really do make an effort to make it educational and enjoyable (I may ask to be released when DS moves on to Webelos).

For better or for worse I am the somewhat reluctant public face of the cub scout bear den. I am doing the best that I can with almost no training, no support, and (did I mention) I feel sorta tricked into this responsibility in the first place.

If the boys or their parents were given a survey of how what was working or not working in the scout program it would be very hard not to take it personally.

I am very sure that there are many things that I could do to make the experience better. Unfortunately, I am not interested in becoming Mr. Scouting. There is an upper limit in how much time and effort I want to invest in my calling and I am just about there already.

P.S. a good chunk of the disorganization experienced in our local scouting organization is because the Cub Master is a fairly new member that is in over his head. Critical feedback of him would not do much good because he appears to be barely holding it together (and staying active) as it is.

I suppose that these are problems inherent with the volunteer conscription process. You cannot complain too loudly about people’s failings in callings because they never really asked to do that particular calling and it may not fit any of their personal strengths.

[Anonymous]

This is good feedback. But how, without some kind of measurement system, do you go about improving the teaching and learning experience at church beyond holding a council and working with a few people who attend now and then?

There are self-evaluations you give the teacher, and then, yes, they can opt-in to feedback sessions.

The other alternative is for me just to ask the teacher’s if I can come to their classes, observe, be appreciative and complementary about their work, and then form my own assessment of what the Ward needs. Better yet, get it from their Ward leaders…

What if I survey the Ward leaders rather than the teachers? While also asking the teachers what they want to learn in Teachers Council?

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

This is good feedback. But how, without some kind of measurement system, do you go about improving the teaching and learning experience at church

My short answer is that you don’t. Bad teaching is to be endured or opted out of (you can go to the foyer, go to a different class, or just zone out into your phone). Fixing bad teaching is not something that you are necessarily empowered to do. You have given them some ideas and some thoughtful best practices. Perhaps doing that once a quarter as a refresher is the best that you can hope for.

Ohhh, and bring treats to those quarterly meetings.

[Anonymous]

Reuben wrote:

I would love it, and would want it more personalized. But I’m an ENTP who is used to critical feedback because of academic training, and I’ve seen the growth value of such feedback often enough to want to punch through a moderate amount of discomfort.

I can imagine teachers for whom teaching is mostly about being personally uplifted or feeling like they contribute something, who might really hate this. I can also imagine those who are naturally anxious assuming the worst about depersonalized feedback – that anything negative is likely about them.

Maybe you could run the idea past your teachers.

I am INTJ, but I have become a real fan of feedback. I think in my older age I just don’t get as upset by negative feedback and I can look at it and see if it is true or not. I am always begging for feedback. At work I have an anonymous survey at the end that asks “was this meeting (a) good (b) OK (c) poor (d) It really sucked” and I am not totally upset if they pick D.

I think you should talk about the growth from feedback, but really leave it up to them if they want to do it. Those that are worried about what they hear might skip it. They just are not ready for it yet.

I would wonder if most members would not actually give critical feedback. Most will be “wonderful” even if they fell asleep (then again, sometimes a nap is “wonderful” – even DFU said so in conference).

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

This is good feedback. But how, without some kind of measurement system, do you go about improving the teaching and learning experience at church

My short answer is that you don’t. Bad teaching is to be endured or opted out of (you can go to the foyer, go to a different class, or just zone out into your phone). Fixing bad teaching is not something that you are necessarily empowered to do. You have given them some ideas and some thoughtful best practices. Perhaps doing that once a quarter as a refresher is the best that you can hope for.

Ohhh, and bring treats to those quarterly meetings.

So, more mediocrity….

There comes a point when you have to start applying Organizational Behavior principles….and that means the age old problem of “no top management support”. Having taught, observed, and in recent years, implemented effective ways of getting the results I seek, I have come to rest on this principle.

YOU HAVE TO GET TALENTED PEOPLE WITH PASSION FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN THE RIGHT SEATS ON THE RIGHT BUS.

And that means a commitment from the Bpric to make quality teaching a priority. That means learning to identify the most effective teachers in the Ward, and the ones with passion, calling them to teaching positions, and then giving them strong support. And yes, with a limited supply of volunteers, it normally means other areas suffer, or people must have multiple callings.

And of course, if I suggest making the quality of the Sunday experience a priority to the Bpric, then I become just another member harping about their area. And shouldering the frustration of a top leadership that doesn’t listen, or won’t cooperate, or simply won’t agree. Been there, done that, started my own organization so I don’t have to deal with that.

In order to identify the best teachers, I asked the Bishop if we could open the Teacher’s Council to anyone who wants to expereince it, whether they are teacher or not. This could be a way of identifying the sleepers in the Ward who like teaching, and could make good candidates for committed teachers….he said “Consider it done” but to my knowledge it never happened by announcement.

So, if I go strictly on your advice, Roy, it means I simply settle into my calling with creating the best experience I can for the people who attend, and forget any structured way of improving teaching. It’s beyond my authority, and any kind of quarterly measurement system could do as much harm as good.

I also feel a bit frustrated that our Sunday School presidency would likely block the ideas for whatever reason they have as well.

So maybe I shouldn’t bother? Comments? Just do my best in my two councils and leave it at that?

[Anonymous]

I don’t know, SD, do we evaluate and measure the performance of our SPs, bishops, clerks, EQPs, etc.? The argument could be made that quarterly reports are such an evaluation, but other than the endless blah blah blah about home teaching and such in meetings, what ever changes or improves? Has a bishop ever been released because his HT numbers or SM attendance were abysmal? Is he released if he doesn’t go and visit every member, even if instructed to do so by his SP? When was the last time a member of the Q15, Presidency of the Seventy or member of the First Quorum of the Seventy was released (I know Seventy are made emeritus at age 70)?

Fact is your evaluations, etc., aren’t going to change the culture of the church where there’s a hole and someone fills it whether they want to or not and whether or not they’re very good at it. The good teachers will sometimes be in roles where they can teach regularly and sometimes not. The bad teachers will sometimes be in roles where they regularly teach and sometimes not. And sometimes either of them are doing things they way they want and don’t want to change – and there’s no repercussion for not changing.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I don’t know, SD, do we evaluate and measure the performance of our SPs, bishops, clerks, EQPs, etc.? The argument could be made that quarterly reports are such an evaluation, but other than the endless blah blah blah about home teaching and such in meetings, what ever changes or improves?

As an analogy — I find this is what happens when I take over an auxiliary at the Stake level — when I was Stake YM president. In the first quarter, the YM Presidents and Bps who were responsive to our involvement in helping their Ward, responded. All of a sudden, we get quorum presidents called to the Aaronic Priesthood. They started holding YM activities, and then they held BYC meetings — those were our priorities the first quarter I took over. One ward started a scout troop. Massive spike in improvement at first — but only in about 4 of the 8 Wards in our Stake. The others who had no quorum presidents, no regular activities, no BYC — they continued to ignore us. And it stayed that way as long as their Bishops were called. You could tell they didn’t like the STake Young Men’s presidency and what it stood for.

At that point, our best efforts were placed in putting on Stake Activities the youth looked forward to, and modeling a Stake Youth Council that was driven by youth, to the ward leaders and their Ward youth reps who attended.

So, again, you have to be judicious about what to put in your strategic plan, and it should be based on the energy you can expect from the people in your target group. I think you and Roy represent the voice of the people who have no passion for teaching and are acting out of a sense of duty. This is not an insult to you — just the voice that you represent in this situation… I think Lookinghard, Reuben, and Holy Cow represent the voice of the people who would take the feedback and act on it.

So, it looks like a mixed bag…I wonder what others here think think. So far it’s about 50/50 about how it would be viewed, or perhaps with a slight majority who would welcome the idea.

Also, consider this perspective, how would you view a measurement and improvement program AS A non-teacher, CLASS PARTICIPANT? Would you be glad someone is trying to make class interesting? Or would you just be skeptical about it as just another flavor of the month program that won’t change much?

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Also, consider this perspective, how would you view a measurement and improvement program AS A non-teacher, CLASS PARTICIPANT? Would you be glad someone is trying to make class interesting? Or would you just be skeptical about it as just another flavor of the month program that won’t change much?

Probably some mix of both, but more skeptical than not. Like your example, the ones who are going to do their best and try to change and make things “better” (which is subjective, of course) are going to do so even if only temporarily. The ones who are doing it because they have reluctantly accepted the calling/assignment (perhaps only because they believe they’re not allowed to say no) are probably going to do the bare minimum, if that. Some are very happy with the status quo while others think things could be much better. We’re not all motivated to improve, some are just motivated to tough it out until something different, and perhaps more likable, comes along.

FWIW, as a class participant I would likely not answer your survey, whether I liked the teacher or not. I don’t go to SS in my own ward because the teacher bugs me. He teaches directly from the manual, often reading word for word, and he seems to believe that crying every lesson is a necessary part of “feeling the Spirit” (or perhaps demonstrating how spiritual he is, I don’t know). He is technologically literate, but uses none of the online/electronic lesson materials and is resistant to those who try to bring stuff from Revelations in Context, etc., into the discussion. He thinks he has to get through the stuff in the printed manual each week and starts lecturing toward the end when it’s evident he might not get through it. He’s taught this way for years and thinks it’s best practice. He’s even a bit arrogant about it and probably isn’t going to change. And he likes the calling. In my ward there are quite literally more people in the foyer/chapel than in his class – sometimes more than twice as many. I could choose to go the Gospel Principles, but believe it or not that’s worse and I don’t buy into all the indoctrination.

Just to clarify here, I actually like to teach. I’m fully supportive of the teacher council idea and see it as a vast improvement over its predecessor. It has real potential for change. But I also recognize our best teachers are hardly ever called teachers. And I like to be the voice of those who don’t have one.

[Anonymous]

I think just about every point I wanted to raise has been raised but here goes…

My initial gut reaction follows something LookingHard said in his comments – I don’t think a survey is going to get you honest answers, even when the surveys are anonymous.

SilentDawning wrote:

How would you as a teacher, react to a survey like this, and the results, when aggregated? Would you resent it? Object to it? Embrace it? Think it unusual? Feel like quitting? Think nothing of it?

I’ll try to answer as my former, orthodox self rather than what I’ve (d)evolved into over the years. Scrupulosity is real. I’d be starting at a baseline of already feeling inadequate in my calling, I’d interpret my feelings of inadequacy as a personal fault or lack of righteousness, and I’d never make the connection that my general malaise in my calling was more related to being assigned to do a task for which I had no passion whatsoever.

If I were evaluated in my calling when I had that mindset I’d end up feeling worse. I probably wouldn’t reach resentment levels or “I quit!” levels. I’d just end up feeling even worse about myself, not measuring up to god’s standards. A failure.

I don’t think that’s going to be the case for most people at church but I’ve heard other people describe similar feelings before.

DarkJedi wrote:

Generally speaking, I’m opposed to “evaluating” unpaid volunteer teachers.

This. And not even volunteer teachers. Teachers that felt obligated to accept the call to teach.

SilentDawning wrote:

This is good feedback. But how, without some kind of measurement system, do you go about improving the teaching and learning experience at church beyond holding a council and working with a few people who attend now and then?

Roy wrote:

My short answer is that you don’t. Bad teaching is to be endured or opted out of (you can go to the foyer, go to a different class, or just zone out into your phone). Fixing bad teaching is not something that you are necessarily empowered to do. You have given them some ideas and some thoughtful best practices. Perhaps doing that once a quarter as a refresher is the best that you can hope for.

The first thing that popped into my head is what Roy ended up saying. You don’t. I know that answer doesn’t sit well but… What is the goal of the evaluation? To make a better teacher? What if someone doesn’t want to be a better teacher? To make better lessons? That’s tricky… and subjective.

Unfortunately the best advice I could give a Sunday School President is to keep track of how long teachers have been in callings and rotate them out frequently. Come up with an acceptable range for holding the calling, 6 months minimum, 1.5 years maximum. If you luck into a good teacher keep them around for the maximum and make a mental note of them for future callings down the road, if you end up with a bad teacher keep them around for the minimum and continue to feel out their true passions with other callings.

I bring up time limits because I have seen two different cases where a teacher taught the same class for over a dozen years. One read directly from the manual. The other gave variants of the same three lessons over and over… for over a decade. In both cases the teachers loved teaching and didn’t want to relinquish the calling. Cycling teachers allows different people that respond to different styles to be paired with a teacher that works for them.

I know it’s defeatist in a way but god tends to give imperfect people a very loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong leash.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Also, consider this perspective, how would you view a measurement and improvement program AS A non-teacher, CLASS PARTICIPANT? Would you be glad someone is trying to make class interesting? Or would you just be skeptical about it as just another flavor of the month program that won’t change much?

Flipping the perspective. Good idea. As a participant I’d like anything that would make for more interesting classes but as a participant… all our chicken salad was copyrighted in the 1990s and by this time [it] stinketh… if you know what I mean. :angel:

A teacher can only do so much with the manuals. Maybe give a class on it being okay to color outside the lines so long as the principles are being taught.

Also, when we do surveys at work one question is always “Do you believe any action will be taken as the result of this survey.”

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Is never an option on the survey so I never know what to fill out.

[Anonymous]

Now I’m at a loss about what to do….

If I ask the Ward council they shoot from the hip, and don’t hit on the stuff that I know makes for good lessons. I find the manual is fluff in many situations….and I’m out of ideas about what to teach them. I have tried to get some of them to come with their lesson plans for discussion by the council, but only one person — a woman studying to be a teacher — was willing to do that. It was a great meeting, by the way, and she got excellent feedback, but no one else wanted to follow her lead later on, even though we were supportive of her.

I am thinking of suggesting that we administer the survey to the Ward council, and perhaps their councilors, and using their input to drive the teachers’ council. If they are currently teachers, then answer it from the perspective of a class PARTICIPANT. Also, ask the teachers what they want to learn about. And do that instead. It makes sense for a professional teacher, with experience in teaching the gospel, and the “curriculum” to ask the questions about what to improve upon, and not just throw out a question about what to focus on and get ad hoc suggestions.

Finally, there are members in the Ward I think I could feel out about whether they think such a survey would be a good idea in a general, non-teacher identifying way. If they think it’s a good idea, they take the survey. If not, then I don’t even give it to them. I could probably get 40 responses….

What to do with the information? Talks in Sacrament to strengthen the strong points in our teaching, and address the parts that need improvement in Teachers Council…

[Author]

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