The Short Version of what I asked

[Anonymous]

Quote:

What is the goal of the evaluation? To make a better teacher? What if someone doesn’t want to be a better teacher? To make better lessons? That’s tricky… and subjective.

The purpose is to improve the experience of coming to church on Sunday. It makes a HUGE difference when you go home filled every Sunday. Boringness is a major cause of inactivity in my view. Certainly in my case, and the case of my son.

I was less active for a few years, and then attended a Ward in the town I now live. The people were always prepared, good teachers, etcetera, and it completely energized me. I liked going to classes.

I guess as a church we love mediocrity. We’d rather beat our heads against the wall to drag less actives to church, but then not care what the experience is like when they get there.

I also think that our Bishop is the type that if I gave him data, he’d be more likely to really think hard before he puts someone into a teaching position who doesn’t want it, isn’t good at it, and doesn’t want to be good at it.

[Anonymous]

I think your heart is in the right place.

I think surveys are a good idea, generally.

I think you feel passionately about this – and I think that is a wonderful thing.

I think you ought to ask your local leadership how they feel about it.

I think you need to be ready to accept rejection of the idea and not let it derail your efforts to help improve the teaching. I am NOT saying it will get shot down; I am saying you need to be prepared for that and accept it if it happens. It simply is a long way outside the traditional norm, so it might be a long shot.

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

I think your heart is in the right place.

I think surveys are a good idea, generally.

I think you feel passionately about this – and I think that is a wonderful thing.

I think you ought to ask your local leadership how they feel about it.

I think you need to be ready to accept rejection of the idea and not let it derail your efforts to help improve the teaching. I am NOT saying it will get shot down; I am saying you need to be prepared for that and accept it if it happens. It simply is a long way outside the traditional norm, so it might be a long shot.

The idea was to get bottom-up support and show research was done for the final plan to improve gospel teaching on a large scale -THEN present it to the leadership. I did the same thing with a massive curriculum project years ago. The people at the top blessed the idea in principle of improvement, without knowing any specifics, at first. Then the people at the top rubber stamped our plan because we had involved so many people in crafting it. It got through with ZERO changes, and was highly successful.

The part in bold/underline above is what bothers me about this. At this point in my life I am completely sick and tired of having ideas that work, and the will to implement them, only to have them shot down by committees, leaders, or others. That is one reason why I started my own non-profit. After 23 years of that happening in the church, and in two other non-profits, I am pretty much done with it.

And the church is probably the most expansive idea-killer I’ve ever been involved in — rule laden, mechanistic, with people in leadership who are all about obedience and compliance rather than innovation and doing what works.

Case in point — I wanted to turn the Sunday experience into a mini conference as a community outreach effort for missionary work. We would have some of the best speakers in the Ward teaching various lessons that would speak to the needs of the community. We would show how the gospel can be practical in changing your life.

We had an LDS Social Services counselor who would talk on family unity or healthy marriage, a HC who would speak on unique principles of our religion to improve your life, this guy who worked for FEMA to talk on emergency preparedness. Bill the thing like you do a conference. Standard fare really….people do it all the time.

They shot the idea down because “it’s not the program of the church”.

I wanted to put a sign at the front to advertise some event we were holding and they shot that down. Our Bishop, at the time, with great relish, hunted me down after PEC with the manual and with glee explained the inspired reason there can be no sign at the front of the church. He really looked excited to tell me why you can’t have a sign at the front of the building — former military, senior manager at really large company you would know.

Last night, as I said my prayers lying in bed, I realized I’d gotten off my plan of using the non-profit for my service jollies, not the church — due to the fact they can’t seem to embrace new ideas. So I was thinking of going back to just “doing my job” in teacher’s council. Maybe survey the Ward council and leave it at that.

I’m too ticked at my ideas being blocked by so many people in this life to take the risk. The church truly is not a place for innovation….

Still not completely dead to my idea yet, but it’s withering on the vine based on the realistic feedback here. And that’s not a negative comment toward anyone — there just seems to be too many obstacles thrown up by a) our conscription model of service and b) the church’s general lack of discouragement of new ideas that don’t come from the top down.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I guess as a church we love mediocrity. We’d rather beat our heads against the wall to drag less actives to church, but then not care what the experience is like when they get there.

I think we’re talking past each other a little. I’ll qualify that later. I agree that for the most part the lessons are super, super boring but wouldn’t say that the church loves mediocrity. It’s not that simple.

Changing absolutely nothing about them, the same lessons that are boring me to tears right now would have me attentively engaged 20+ years ago. It was new and novel back then, there was a reason to pay attention. Everyone at church is at a different level and I feel the lessons try to play to the lowest common denominator. There’s the gospel essentials class that is supposed to address the needs of people that are still learning about church doctrines and there’s the gospel doctrine class that’s meant for people that are beyond rehashing the basics but the gospel doctrine class is on manuals that are 20 years old now, it’s basically gospel essentials part 2 at this point.

Many teachers progress over time but it can be hard to notice because they start out at a lower level and progress more slowly. E.g. maybe a teacher starts out at a 1.2 and takes a few years to progress to a 1.3 but they have to reach a 4.5 before their lessons are no longer considered bad.

Remember my story about the teachers that taught SS for over a dozen consecutive years. For the one that read directly from the manual each week I remember coming out of the class one day and overhearing someone say “I always love so-and-so’s lessons. They’re the reason I come to church every Sunday.” And I’m all 😯 :wtf: . I’d rather a teacher get up there, ask tough questions that get you thinking, and facilitate a discussion… but some people hate that as much as I hate it when a teacher reads from the manual. Those people may not come to church to be challenged, they may come to church to be validated.

I get how your survey idea could address this. Find out what people want so you can be in a better position to give it to them.

There’s also the phenomenon where the class participants kill the mood. The teacher asks a thought provoking question and the class sits there in silence, uninvolved, not engaged. So we default back to the questions and material that people feel “safe” answering. It’s not just the teacher, the class has an important role in making the lessons better.

So in some of the comments it sounds like people either love or are sated by mediocrity. From my perspective I see it as more of an acceptance of the reality of church. Given the environment I can’t really expect church to be any better than it is. Yes it would be nice for the lessons to be better and yes I believe we should work towards making church lessons better but I think I start to run aground when I expect the lessons to be better. The most I can do is try to contribute to the lessons as a participant (without taking over) or fill my need for inspiring lessons through personal study outside of the 3 hour block.

SilentDawning wrote:

The part in bold/underline above is what bothers me about this. At this point in my life I am completely sick and tired of having ideas that work, and the will to implement them, only to have them shot down by committees, leaders, or others. That is one reason why I started my own non-profit. After 23 years of that happening in the church, and in two other non-profits, I am pretty much done with it.

And the church is probably the most expansive idea-killer I’ve ever been involved in — rule laden, mechanistic, with people in leadership who are all about obedience and compliance rather than innovation and doing what works.

Forgive me for being blunt… It’s a top down church. You want your ideas heard? Aspire to become the prophet or a GA. That’s the culture of the church. There’s a 190 page manual for local leaders that basically tells people to follow the rules. Teachers are told to use manuals and not color outside the lines. I posted on this a few weeks back – the material covered in church during the 3rd hour is prescribed by the very top for half the Sundays, determined by the SP for a quarter of the Sundays (one person out of the entire stake), and determined by the BP, EQP, or RSP for the remainder (a few people out of the entire ward). For Sunday School lessons on every single Sunday are determined from the top… and they don’t even refresh the manuals. I swear, being the Sunday School curriculum guy must be the easiest job in the church. “What do we teach next year Elder?” “Uh… just start from the beginning of the manual again. If they find it boring it’s their problem.”

So yeah. This is not the church to be autonomous. You and I are essentially new hires at McDonald’s. You work in the area where the store manager tells you to work and you keep your burger ideas and your ad campaign ideas to yourself because nobody is listening.

It’s grim(ace) but we’re the tail, the guys at the top are the dog.

[Anonymous]

Nibbler wrote:

So yeah. This is not the church to be autonomous. You and I are essentially new hires at McDonald’s. You work in the area where the store manager tells you to work and you keep your burger ideas and your ad campaign ideas to yourself because nobody is listening.

Pretty much sums it up. Starting to think I was foolish to try to do anything new and effective beyond what I’m already doing. Thanks for saving me from hardship and frustration.

I think the effort is better committed expanding the board of the non-profit I started 1.5 years ago. That is the fertile place for ideation, not the church.

Thanks guys! Much appreciated for helping me put my achievement motivation in check…and I mean that sincerely.

[Anonymous]

I like Ray’s comment above. I think you try but you don’t set yourself up for disappointment by having expectations. That way if leaders are responsive, great. If they aren’t, at least you tried.

Take Reuben’s recent experience. He presented something to his leaders about ministering to people with a faith crisis and IIRC it was well received. Had I done something like that in my stake I’d probably have to forfeit my temple recommend… but Reuben isn’t in my stake.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

I like Ray’s comment above. I think you try but you don’t set yourself up for disappointment by having expectations. That way if leaders are responsive, great. If they aren’t, at least you tried.

Take Reuben’s recent experience. He presented something to his leaders about ministering to people with a faith crisis and IIRC it was well received. Had I done something like that in my stake I’d probably have to forfeit my temple recommend… but Reuben isn’t in my stake.

One thing I’m sensitive to is this — when you are “on the edge” — coming out of less activity, not fully with the church program, etcetera, everyone is nice to you. You tend to get what you want.

Then, after you re-engage, they start taking you for granted. You want good, reasonable things and they sit on their high horses telling you “no” for cultural or other reasons. That really ticks me off, and I’m afraid that will happen in this case. It was this taking for grantedness that partly pushed me off the Tr holding wagon a few years ago, and I’m still sensitive to it. Better not to touch it.

I might survey the Ward council (manual says Ward Council drives the Teachers Council topics), and mention the idea of measurement and continuous improvement to the SS Presidency. But it will be without expectations, and only if the opportunity presents itself. But it’ll be from the armchair of low expectations and frankly not caring.

I have also learned, after decades on the front line in various jobs, your best path to influence is to do a good job in those areas over which you have full control. THAT will sometimes expand your circle of influence. But try to lead initiatives from the bottom or the middle is generally a waste of time. Even my curriculum project years ago had support from the top in general principle…and this time, I don’t even have that. I had forgotten that…until now.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

I know it’s defeatist in a way but god tends to give imperfect people a very loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong leash.

That is explained in the BOM:

Quote:

He doth suffer that they may do this thing [teach mediocre lessons], or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the [boredom] of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

The thing must be allowed to continue in order for free agency to be respected. God allows them to dig their own graves so to speak.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

nibbler wrote:

I know it’s defeatist in a way but god tends to give imperfect people a very loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong leash.

That is explained in the BOM:

Quote:

He doth suffer that they may do this thing [teach mediocre lessons], or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the [boredom] of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

The thing must be allowed to continue in order for free agency to be respected. God allows them to dig their own graves so to speak.

So, you pay out 66% of your standard 15% of gross income normally allocated to retirement savings (10%/15%= 0.66). This is to be in good standing with a church that accepts mediocrity as a way of justifying harsh punishment on judgment day.

Sign me up!!!! I am going to mail a check to the bishop immediately!!!

Sorry to sound sarcastic, but that is what I thought. It also means that we shouldn’t try to improve anything when free agency is involved, and that includes missionary work, home teaching, sin, etcetera….

Anyway, I’m off this kick now. And don’t read displeasure into my reponse Roy….I’m just letting out some frustration as I know that is kind of the way it is.

I was on the verge of enlarging the church footprint in my life, and my key to happiness was keeping it the right size. I think everyone has saved me a lot of frustration…don’t think I’m criticizing your perspective here. it has been valuable to hear it, notwithstanding my sarcasm.

I’m going to maybe survey the Ward council since it’s supported in the manual.

Going forward, I’m gonna expand the use of technology — everyone was excited they could just show up with videos on a USB drive and play them directly on the TV’s we have. Big hit last council, with multiple people doing it the month after my last lesson. I’m going to expand the technology training to show them how to get files off a MAC onto USB using a special cheap adapter — as we could not do this last time I had a technology focused councile. I will also continue experimenting with broadcasting videos straight from your cell phone, ipad or tablet, if possible. One counselor in the SS Presidency said he wanted to talk to me about how to increase attendance at the Teachers Council; I can nurture that.

Keep adding resources to the website I created on gospel teaching ….http://www.gospelteaching.weebly.com. It’s only barebones but I have stuff to post there…

If I had my way, this is what the program would look like

1. Bishopric commitment to work with me to identify the people with passion and talent for teaching the gospel.

2. Call these people as openings occur.

3. Let teachers know that if at any time they want to survey their class anonymously, I can provide paper copies, for their own use, not shared with anyone unless they want to.

4. Aggregated survey collection from the Ward regarding adult and youth classes, with data used to drive the council.

5. Strengthening of the things we are good at; training in those areas that could improve.

6. Some kind of regular show of appreciation for teachers.

7. Have more than one teacher for each class to provide variety for the participants.

One thing I learned is that when I show up in a class, the teachers wonder “Why is HE here?????”. This happened when I went to Gospel Doctrine recently. It also happened when i attended Gospel Essentials — the teacher asked why i was there with fear in her eyes.

I guess there is latent mistrust of anyone who wants to improve anything, even though I am not at all critical of people in Teacher’s Council — and even when the class is the place the teacher is supposed to attend.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think it’s that simple or that black and white SD.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I don’t think it’s that simple or that black and white SD.

If you meant the 66% part I was only being tongue in cheek….don’t attach any importance to it.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

I don’t think it’s that simple or that black and white SD.

If you meant the 66% part I was only being tongue in cheek….don’t attach any importance to it.

I wasn’t specifically talking about that, no. I get that was sarcasm. Sort of like the story of the guy who paid tithing on what he was going to make as opposed to what he was actually making. I was more referring to this statement:

Quote:

One thing I’m sensitive to is this — when you are “on the edge” — coming out of less activity, not fully with the church program, etcetera, everyone is nice to you. You tend to get what you want.

Then, after you re-engage, they start taking you for granted. You want good, reasonable things and they sit on their high horses telling you “no” for cultural or other reasons. That really ticks me off, and I’m afraid that will happen in this case. It was this taking for grantedness that partly pushed me off the Tr holding wagon a few years ago, and I’m still sensitive to it. Better not to touch it.

[Anonymous]

SD does make a good point tho…I see it…when people are lost or inactive…they get targeted for love and attention.

Once you get in the fold…they look for the next target.

It is easier to give attention to outliers than to those within the normal curve.

Honestly…that gives me some motivation to keep going and do my calling and people are not concerned about me and leave me alone. That strategy can work. If I stop going…people will wonder what happened.

If I just accept that is what is likely to happen…I can swim with the currents and do my own thing in my own way, and own my religion. It’s all good.

I only get frustrated when I start to want others to treat me differently than they are likely to do.

[Anonymous]

Dark Jedi wrote:

I wasn’t specifically talking about that, no. I get that was sarcasm. Sort of like the story of the guy who paid tithing on what he was going to make as opposed to what he was actually making. I was more referring to this statement:

Quote:

One thing I’m sensitive to is this — when you are “on the edge” — coming out of less activity, not fully with the church program, etcetera, everyone is nice to you. You tend to get what you want.

Then, after you re-engage, they start taking you for granted. You want good, reasonable things and they sit on their high horses telling you “no” for cultural or other reasons. That really ticks me off, and I’m afraid that will happen in this case. It was this taking for grantedness that partly pushed me off the Tr holding wagon a few years ago, and I’m still sensitive to it. Better not to touch it.

It may not always be that simple (uncategorical statements NEVER hold true, even this one about uncategorical statements), but in my experience, it’s very much that way in the Wards I’ve attended or come back to after scaling back my activity. Many leaders want the number, to get you onto the bus again, the achievement of getting you back in the temple, the 100% home teaching statistic, etcetera. And my commitment crisis was exacerbated by that tendency to take you for granted, treat you like an employee, etcetera. It’s like a slam dunk for that inactive we’ve got back at church, so, let’s go on to the next one. We can agree to disagree DJ, if you don’t see it that way, but I see it VERY MUCH that way in my experience. It has been very consistent. Also consistent is their willingness to disagree with most initiatives I come up with that is out of the ordinary in some way after I’ve gotten active again. Or to ignore my input on certain callings that are suitable without me simply saying “no” to the ones I don’t want, until they get it right.

The good part of this thread is that it reminded me that I have that to look forward to if I start taking the initiative and showing a lot of commitment again. Blockage of my ideas. As an idea man, I’ve had enough of that.

[Anonymous]

I have certainly felt used, taken advantage of and unappreciated by others in the church, SD. And I have felt my opinion was not valued and worse, invalidated. I am not at all certain any of that was intentional nor am I certain that from others’ points of view they see it the same way.

[Author]

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