The story of Green Apples

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

Please note that in Lucid Dreaming, there is no mistake about your sleep status. You know you are asleep, and you know you are dreaming. It is an awareness. False awakenings are the opposite of awareness, and are not Lucid Dreaming.

That is very true but I was not sure what else to call it.

I used to listen to a talk show that often spoke of a specific type of lucid dreaming. It was believed that some had the ability to channel themselves during sleep to be able to travel the galaxy and visit the spirit world. I have heard that Sleep Paralysis can be a gateway to this but I never bothered to try it because I was already too freaked out. Also I’ve heard some scary stories of bad things happening while people are in this strange spirit dream like stage.

Of course all that strange stuff could just be a regular lucid dream and the person is simply traveling where they want to.

Tom Haws wrote:

Also, while it’s good to be humanist and rationalist rather than superstitious, I don’t think it’s helpful to be too reductionist. Hate and anger we call spiritual, and they are toxic to our minds, bodies, and spirits. I’m going to read bn’s intro now.

I agree that Hate and anger can be toxic to the mind bodies and spirits. However Bridget_night was terribly must have been terribly exhausted from a newborn baby. It is easier to become even more irritated than usual when someone is sleep deprived. Even if an in law is trying to help out sometimes it can seem as though they are in the way regardless of how pleasant or terrible they really are.

bridget_night wrote:

Dear Green,

Thank you for explaining that sleep disorder. That clears up something that happened to me 35 years ago which scared me to death. I had been sleep deprived with a new colicky baby (my first). It was a new years eve and I had spent the whole day hating my mother in law. She was a very cruel woman. When I woke up I could hear my baby crying in the other room, but I could not move or talk. I felt paraylized and I suddeniy felt an evil precense in the room laying on top of me trying to kill me. In my mind I kept saying, “in the name of Jesus Christ be gone.” I was so frightened and it took several times of sayng that before I was unparalyized and coud wake up and move around. I had decided that my being filled with so much hate the day before must have brought Satan on the scene and I swore from that day on I would never hate anyone again. It is good to understand now what had happened because I was so traumatized from it. I have also had dreams where I thought I was awake but wasn’t and I don’t like those kind of dreams either as it takes waking up from several dreams before I am actually awake. Yet it seems so real that I woke up and am not awake.

Read my intro Green and tell me what you think…I would rather live my life based on truth and reality than a pipe dream because I do not want the bubble to burst later. So, I admire thinkers like you and those on this group who are not afraid to face the truth. Bridget

Your very welcome

and I read your intro. It is good to see that you became stronger spiritually from your experiences.

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

I agree that Hate and anger can be toxic to the mind bodies and spirits. However Bridget_night was terribly must have been terribly exhausted from a newborn baby. It is easier to become even more irritated than usual when someone is sleep deprived.

There is a good point here. People, regardless of how badly they seem to be behaving, are usually doing just about the best they can in light of their background and resources. I hope people look at me that way!

[Anonymous]

Welcome!

[Anonymous]

I’M BACK!!!

For a moment at least.

I thought about starting a new thread somewhere but I wasn’t totally sure where to put it. There were some things I wanted to say that related to some of the threads that already existed. After skimming through some discussions on this board I decided to just go ahead and post in my introductory thread.

I’ll give an up date as to where I’m at and what’s on my mind…

So I still attend church. I have a calling.

I keep find myself going back and forth with what to really think and how to really feel about certain things. I guess that is okay.

Awhile back I bought myself an NIV Bible. I know there is a discussion going on about the King James Version compared to other versions. I thought about saying something in that discussion however I chose not to as of yet.

I will say that my main concern and complaint I have heard over the years is that the Book of Mormon contains a lot of KJV Bible language through out the entire book.

I’ve heard the criticism many times that the only reason my church uses the KJV is because it all looks and sounds so similar to the Book of Mormon. Had we suddenly switched to another Bible that everything wouldn’t seem the same and people would “wake up!” to the true meaning of the Bible.

I have had many wonderful experiences with The Book of Mormon. However for my own curiosity I feel that I should actually really start reading through the NIV version. Maybe I will find new meaning with certain scriptures. I will even gladly check back and forth with the King James version to see the similarities and differences.

right now I feel really kind of spit. I don’t feel the need to break away from the LDS church. I would like to remain at least for now.

However if I truly feel in my heart that maybe the LDS church isn’t truly what it claims; I will simply leave quietly.

[Anonymous]

Hey cool! Thanks for stopping back in to give us an update. It’s nice to hear how you are doing, how things are progressing along for you.

I personally like the New Revised Standard Version a lot. I have tons of different translations on my book shelf though. Understanding the environment of scripture, translation and interpretation can add a lot to our perspective on things, I think. The Bible is a set of “stories” (that doesn’t mean not-true). Different translations all carry the essence of those stories. The closer we get, the harder we strain at the small details though, the translations become different. It only makes it difficult if we take very small pieces, like a sentence fragment, and try to stretch that out into some grand, all-encompassing statement of absolute reality. The translations will not agree on that level. In fact, the collection of books themselves are not consistent internally on that level. That isn’t really a problem, only our expectations of it are.

Speaking of expectations … that leads me into your last statement:

Quote:

However if I truly feel in my heart that maybe the LDS church isn’t truly what it claims; I will simply leave quietly.

The Church is an idea — nothing more and nothing less. It can’t make claims. It can’t make promises. It can’t break them. It has no voice. Joseph Smith made a lot of claims. So did Brigham Young. Prophets, leaders and members have all made claims about their expectations of the Church. Many people have claimed the Church is perfectly true. Others have claimed it is the only source of truth. Many of us have had those expectations and made those claims. What happens if they don’t end up the way we expect? (not saying these expectations are true or not, just that we want those things to be true).

[Anonymous]

Welcome back! Thanks for the update.

I only can echo what Brian said. We all need to use some vehicle to bring us to God. The LDS Church works for lots of people – lots of people with very different views of it, btw; it doesn’t work for lots of people. I hope it works for you, since it works for me and I want lots of other people in my vehicle. However, ultimately, you have to purchase the vehicle that works for you – and maybe trade it in later to get back into the one I’m riding.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I too have experienced sleep paralysis, and it is interesting. I usually just hear a cat walking on the piano keys, though (back when we didn’t have a cat) or dream that it’s night when it’s day or vice-versa. Sometimes I have a new dream blow out another dream. Very cool stuff.

It’s actually much more common than people realize. I have experienced it. Once you know what it is, it’s less frightening.

As someone has mentioned, it frequently feels as if someone is lying on top of you (often happens to people when sleeping on their back), sometimes a presence, sometimes they feel evil. (Dogs don’t get sleep paralysis, hence you see them “running” around in their sleep.)

In fact, it’s taken as one of the major explanations for a lot of so called alien abductions.

See here –

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/06/science/alien-abduction-science-calls-it-sleep-paralysis.html?pagewanted=1

Quote:

About once a week, Jean-Christophe Terrillon wakes up and senses the presence of a threatening, evil being beside his bed. Terror ripples through him, and he tries to move or call out.

But he is paralyzed, unable to raise an arm or make a sound. His ears ring, a weight presses down on his chest, and he has to struggle for breath.

Skeptical stuff on sleep paralysis and alien abductions

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc817.htm

Quote:

The experience begins most often when the person is at home in bed (Wright 1994) and most often at night (Spanos, Cross, Dickson, and DuBreuil 1993), though sometimes abductions occur from a car or outdoors. There is an intense blue or white light, a buzzing or humming sound, anxiety or fear, and the sense of an unexplained presence. A craft with flashing lights is seen and the person is transported or “floated” into it. Once inside the craft, the person may be subjected to various medical procedures, often involving the removal of eggs or sperm and the implantation of a small object in the nose or elsewhere. Communication with the aliens is usually by telepathy. The abductee feels helpless and is often restrained, or partially or completely paralyzed.

Quote:

In a typical sleep-paralysis episode, a person wakes up paralyzed, senses a presence in the room, feels fear or even terror, and may hear buzzing and humming noises or see strange lights. A visible or invisible entity may even sit on their chest, shaking, strangling, or prodding them. Attempts to fight the paralysis are usually unsuccessful. It is reputedly more effective to relax or try to move just the eyes or a single finger or toe. Descriptions of sleep paralysis are given in many of the references already cited and in Hufford’s (1982) classic work on the “Old Hag.” I and a colleague are building up a case collection and have reported our preliminary findings (Blackmore and Rose 1996).

Sleep paralysis is thought to underlie common myths such as witch or hag riding in England (Davis 1996-1997), the Old Hag of Newfoundland (Hufford 1982), Kanashibari in Japan (Fukuda 1993), Kokma in St. Lucia (Dahlitz and Parkes 1993), and the Popobawa in Zanzibar (Nickell 1995), among others. Perhaps alien abduction is our modern sleep paralysis myth.

Spanos et al. (1993) have pointed out the similarities between abductions and sleep paralysis. The majority of the abduction experiences they studied occurred at night, and almost 60 percent of the “intense” reports were sleep related. Of the intense experiences, nearly a quarter involved symptoms similar to sleep paralysis.

Cox (1995) divided his twelve abductees into six daytime and six nighttime abductions and, even with such small groups, found that the nighttime abductees reported significantly more frequent sleep paralysis than either of the control groups.

I suggest that the best explanation for many abduction experiences is that they are elaborations of the experience of sleep paralysis.

[Anonymous]

WARNING I AM JUMPING AROUND WITH MY THOUGHTS IN THIS POST DO NOT GRADE IT AS AN ESSAY

Thanks for the comments and information

You know I’m glad there is a a place like this for me.

Brian thanks for your comments on the Bible and the fact that the church is an idea.

Quote:

Hey cool! Thanks for stopping back in to give us an update. It’s nice to hear how you are doing, how things are progressing along for you.

I personally like the New Revised Standard Version a lot. I have tons of different translations on my book shelf though. Understanding the environment of scripture, translation and interpretation can add a lot to our perspective on things, I think. The Bible is a set of “stories” (that doesn’t mean not-true). Different translations all carry the essence of those stories. The closer we get, the harder we strain at the small details though, the translations become different. It only makes it difficult if we take very small pieces, like a sentence fragment, and try to stretch that out into some grand, all-encompassing statement of absolute reality. The translations will not agree on that level. In fact, the collection of books themselves are not consistent internally on that level. That isn’t really a problem, only our expectations of it are.

Speaking of expectations … that leads me into your last statement:

However if I truly feel in my heart that maybe the LDS church isn’t truly what it claims; I will simply leave quietly.

The Church is an idea — nothing more and nothing less. It can’t make claims. It can’t make promises. It can’t break them. It has no voice. Joseph Smith made a lot of claims. So did Brigham Young. Prophets, leaders and members have all made claims about their expectations of the Church. Many people have claimed the Church is perfectly true. Others have claimed it is the only source of truth. Many of us have had those expectations and made those claims. What happens if they don’t end up the way we expect? (not saying these expectations are true or not, just that we want those things to be true).

Right now I feel that the church is defiantly a source of truth.

I’ve had some powerful spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon. I obviously can’t say that those spiritual experiences didn’t happen. I can’t deny those experiences.

I feel that I have an open mind. I feel that everything in the Bible, Book of Mormon and everything could be possible.

I enjoy the talks of Thomas S. Monson and the other leaders of the church.

I would be lying if I got up next Fast Sunday and said ” I KNOW THIS CHURCH IS TRUE.”

Honestly I do not “KNOW” I have a great deal of faith about certain things.

I guess I do feel somewhat bothered by the phrasing.

I have said it on a few occasions.

Maybe the phrase ‘ I KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE.” is the issue as to why so many of us have these faith trials in the first place. We are put in the mind set of absolutely everything in the church is true. so therefore everyone who has ever been a General Authority is Practically Perfect in every way like Mary Poppins.

Then at some point we stumble across some information that causes our perfect image to crack and sometimes break completely.

MARY POPPINS DID WHAT!!!???? 😮 No she couldn’t have done that. Could she? 😯 SHE DID!!! 😡 WHY!! HOW COULD SHE!!??? What am I going to do now?? 😥

But that’s why there are places like this. I’m grateful for that.

I do like the fact that the church is now working on allowing some of this information.

I think the church does work for me.

So Ray I won’t be trading in my vehicle just yet. Though it is a little broken so it won’t be able to travel light speed. Until then I’ll just hide in a crazy giant worm :geek:

Something I was just thinking about today…

Over the years have found some interesting Artifacts that may be just a coincidence to the Book of Mormon . However it does encourage and entertain the idea that maybe there were horses in the Americas before the Spanish came over. They did find some traces that ancient natives did work with metal to some extent. Just little things that make you go hmmmmmm 💡

[Anonymous]

The Mary Poppins metaphor and our expectations was spot on. Good comparison. I can’t say anymore that I know that Church is true, with the implication that everything possible that everyone else has expected about it has been correct.

I do know that the Church has worked for me. It works for me, and it is valuable and good.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I would be lying if I got up next Fast Sunday and said ” I KNOW THIS CHURCH IS TRUE.”

Honestly I do not “KNOW” I have a great deal of faith about certain things.

I guess I do feel somewhat bothered by the phrasing.

I understand how you feel about that phrase. The time that we most often hear this phrase is during the bearing of testimony. It has become part of a rote litany for many. I feel that it has come to be expected by many as part of the closing words to a testimony. However, I have found that I can choose to still bare my testimony and I do not have to use the expected phrases. When I get up to bare my testimony, I chose to focus on principles and ideals. Those life changing admonitions and characteristics of Christ that have most recently influenced me. I use phrases like “I believe” and “I have faith in”. For that matter, I have specifically stated before in my testimony that I have problems with the phrase “I know”. And here is what I have discovered, people are okay with it. I have never had the Bishop pull me aside for using “I believe” or “I think”. I still have members come up to me and tell me that they appreciate my testimony. So, please, even though you have problems with the phrase “I know”, don’t let that prevent you from sharing your testimony of those things that you ARE comfortable with.

Oh, and welcome aboard, I have enjoyed reading your story in your introduction here.

SMiLe

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Those are all interesting questions to ponder and explore. I think ignoring them or pretending they did not happen misses out on a huge chunk of being human. They happen. So what do they mean and what do we do with them?

I find when I ignore or pretend things have not happened, I have shut the door to the possibility of learning and gaining insight from my experiences. Whatever these things mean and what we decide to do with them is a personal choice. I think, ponder, think and ask if this experience can be of use in my life. And if so, how? If there is something to be gained, I go for it. If there is not, or perhaps I cannot see the gain from my current perspective, I drop it, always knowing that I can revisit at any given time.

We all work through issues in our own ways. There is no wrong or right, just does it work for me? I have learned to be perfectly happy dropping something I do not understand at the moment. No guilt or shame, just remain open to all possibilities.

[Anonymous]

I got up and bore my testimony last Sunday. I didn’t mention anything about the Book of Mormon. I simply told a short little experience I had. I said that I was thankful for Jesus Christ and the comforting peaceful feelings I can receive through the Holy Ghost.

I noticed that through out the Fast and Testimony meeting only a small few actually said ” I KNOW” when it came to speaking about the church, The Prophet, The Book of Mormon.

Even one of the members of the Bishopric got up and he didn’t use the term. Instead he said that he had a Testimony of….

I appreciated that.

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

Even one of the members of the Bishopric got up and he didn’t use the term. Instead he said that he had a Testimony of….

I’m glad to see this evolution…

[Anonymous]

So after listening to some more Mormon Stories Podcasts as well as listening to and reading other LDS related material I have come to the conclusion that I no longer care….

My Testimony has struggled when it came to God, Jesus, The Holy Ghost, The Prophets of yesterday and of today, everything in the Bible, Book of Mormon and everything else.

I no longer care to look upon Archaeology in hopes of proving or disproving any belief system. I feel there are Archaeological claims to both support and deny the existence of any and every religious figure ever believed by anyone.

Basically I feel at this point that there is no more reason for me to prove or disprove any religious figure in both the unseen world and what I can see.

For now I shall go to church.

I can see a large temptation to fall into an unwanted paths if I do not remain in church.

Unless I can ensure avoidance of the unwanted paths I feel it is better to remain in church.

Even if I don’t fully believe everything when I attend church I naturally try to fit the standards.

In the past when I have not attended church I allow myself to go outside of those standards and it is not very pretty.

[Anonymous]

Greenapples

Thanks for the update, I would have never found your post had you not. I to have had at least 2 experiences of sleep paralysis. Ironically both on my mission, both times I was sleeping on my back. The first in the MTC, the second in Imperial de canete, Peru. Both times there I felt a dark force pressing down on me as I struggled to move or call out to my companion. I did not understand and remember thinking how did that evil spirit get past the angels guarding the MTC with flaming swords drawn(a story I heard many times while in the MTC).

In your opening post you mentioned the book of Abraham difficulties. Many of the issues people have with the LDS church IMO involve, a lot of what I call soft science. For me the evidence in the BoA issue is very compelling and can be evaluated on much stronger terms than many of the other issues.

Hawkgirl are those dinosaur footprints the ones at Dinosaur state park, in Glenrose, TX? Was there with the Scouts just a few months ago, truly amazing!

f4h1

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