The story of Green Apples

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

So after listening to some more Mormon Stories Podcasts as well as listening to and reading other LDS related material I have come to the conclusion that I no longer care….

Yep!!!! That’s my conclusion exactly. I’ve debated the gospel with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhists, Born-Again Christians etcetera. I’ve looked at the scientific evidence and it’s inconclusive. Sometimes it casts doubt on the Church, but then my spiritual experiences (like the one you described early in your post) seem to make a deeper impression on me, counteracting the negative evidence.

So, rather than wring my hands about what’s true for the rest of my life, I figure I’m just going to stick with this at least while my kids and family are getting benefits from it, and perhaps beyond as time allows.

There IS a lot of good. My daugther took an online survey that highlights her strengths (patterns of thinking and action which are productive). The description of her values and thinking patterns made my eyes moisten. It was all about honesty, spirituality, fairness, appreciation for beauty, goodness, and virtue. As I read it, I felt that I was reading the qualities of a resurrected being come to earth. Of the 35 different dimensions this questionnaire measures, THESE spiritual virtues dominate her thinking and behavior — not pleasure, not competition — virtues. I think our emphasis on the goodness of the scriptures, the gospel, and her Church experiences are largely responsible for this.

I can’t bring myself to nullify all that by not supporting it.

One can look at this world as highly mysterious and unstructured. However, we can put structure on it (such as religion) and as a unified theory, it can help us navigate through it. The structure (our chosen religion) may not be perfectly accurate, but it can lead to very good outcomes. There are probably many different structures that lead to these outcomes adequately. Pick one and stay with it. Provide stability to your family as they work within that structure. Nullify the parts that are not productive or peace-producing; integrate with the community with respect as you would any community, and the company you work for. Take a stand kindly and firmly on only the most important issues, but contribute as best as you can.

That’s my philosophy. Living it can be hard though, particularly during periods of angst and disillusionment or when the sacrifices seem more than we can bear. I’m in one of those periods now.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing an update Greenapples. It sounds like you resolved your position in a direction you find satisfying. That’s great!

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

My daugther took an online survey that highlights her strengths (patterns of thinking and action which are productive). The description of her values and thinking patterns made my eyes moisten. It was all about honesty, spirituality, fairness, appreciation for beauty, goodness, and virtue. As I read it, I felt that I was reading the qualities of a resurrected being come to earth. Of the 35 different dimensions this questionnaire measures, THESE spiritual virtues dominate her thinking and behavior — not pleasure, not competition — virtues. I think our emphasis on the goodness of the scriptures, the gospel, and her Church experiences are largely responsible for this.

Well done, my good and faithful friend. You have been given a stewardship to watch over the divine spark in your children. There are many things that affect this divine spark that you have little or no control over, and other things that you can do to have a lasting impact. The uncertainty of the process is what makes the joys all the more precious. You have been blessed to witness this seed, this spark, to swell and give fruit in the life of your daughter. Those that know that they are blessed are blessed in deed.

SilentDawning wrote:

There are probably many different structures that lead to these outcomes adequately. Pick one and stay with it.

I am reminded of picking a University major. Sometimes as I am exposed to the stock market, or movie making, or teaching, etc. I wonder if I would do well in those fields. Yet I can’t do them all. Barring a major that just speaks to my soul and becomes my calling and purpose in life, I will choose one based one limited knowledge and hopefully it will work out. I can change my mind but there are barriers to entry and to exit every time. Who wants to be the eternal vacilator?

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

I can see a large temptation to fall into an unwanted paths if I do not remain in church.

This is a very, very practical reason to stay in the church. For some, it just works to live by the lifestyle and find some peace and enrichment in life (and/or avoidance of pitfalls).

Sure there are lots of mystical things to think about … however, bottom line … it can be a practical testimony that one has for staying, and that to me is one of the strongest testimonies. I can see this as a valid testimony:

Quote:

I don’t know about all that “Joseph Smith stuff”…but I know this…I’m a better person when living by LDS principles.

Thanks for sharing an update, Greenapples.

[Anonymous]

Another Green Apple Update

:angel:

I am still attending church.

I allowed the Missionaries in my ward to visit me. They did some Lessons on Jesus Christ.

I feel that I have faith in Jesus Christ.

I don’t “KNOW” :sick:

Perhaps My issue in the past was that I felt the need to Know.

The fact of the matter is all those people who get up on Fast Sunday and say ” I KNOW….” Really does not know.

They really just have strong amounts of faith. OR!! Perhaps they are saying they Know to fit it. After all Everyone else says “I KNOW” so shouldn’t we all say that we KNOW??

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think if people start saying they have Faith instead of claiming to have Knowledge less people would FREAK OUT!! when they realize they DON’T REALLY KNOW!!

Question : I have FAITH but I don’t KNOW!!??? What should I DO!!?

Answer: Good you have Faith. That is all you need!! Stop trying to KNOW!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank You Thank You :wave:

:yawn:

[Anonymous]

Great to hear that greenapples!!! :clap:

[Anonymous]

Our own scriptural canon says that some have the gift to know, while others have the gift to believe.

That’s good enough for me.

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

Question : I have FAITH but I don’t KNOW!!??? What should I DO!!?

Answer: Good you have Faith. That is all you need!! Stop trying to KNOW!!

What a great epiphany! 😯

It is interesting to me the answer can be so simple, and yet so difficult to come to the realization of that simplicity.

[Anonymous]

Hi GreenApples,

Sounds like you have done a lot of personal thinking about the gospel, the church organization and it’s leaders, and the realities that exist regarding our physical reality of our planet earth.

One thing I believe is what it says in the Pearl of great price that this earth was created from materials that had previously existed. Take the case of a wooden desk as an example. The wood of a tree can be many decades old but the wooden desk can be made from the wood of that tree. Though the desk is brand new, the materials that it came from could be made from a tree that has been around 60 years. The materials of this earth could be literally be billions or millions of years old (carbon dating) but yet the earth itself as a planet could be just thousands of years old. Take into account, too, that God said to Abraham that one day of God’s time is a thousand years of our Earth’s time, So, if this is the case then this earth could be 13 000 years old (6 000 years of our time, or 6 days of God’s time to create it, 1000 years of our time or 1 day of God’s time for God to rest from the creation, and then the 6000 years of our time since the Lord’s day of rest = 13000 earth years or 13 days of God’s time).

All this, of course, is just speculation, but that is how I reason out the biblical account of the creation and the carbon dating reality of the age of the “materials” of the earth.

I went through a period where I explored the reality of extraterrestrial life. There is a ufologist by the name of Clifford E. Stone. There are videos of him on YouTube and he believes in God and that is what is so neat about him. Other ufologists seem to skip God out of the equation for the reason for our existence but Clifford doesn’t. In fact, as a result of his alien experiences and his 22 years in the U.S. military (some of that time being part of the u.s. special forces that retrieves crashed ufo’s) has noted that of all the Alien species catalogued – all of them have been “humanoid” in form (meaning they are bipedal such as we are) and he also says there are species that look very much like us, with noted differences in their 5 senses capabilities. (you can view a YouTube video of him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLL4rpJXkA” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLL4rpJXkA) I’ve studied quite a few of Clifford’s videos and he seems to conclude that there seems to be a common pattern in the alien species that exist. No doubt he believes in God, but he is cautious in his manner of speaking (as not to offend) so that he seems to point out that there is some type of supreme organizing force in our universe that has created beings like ourselves and the others that exist at present in other parts of our universe.

I think what is notable about what Clifford Stone says is that he makes a case for God – a rare thing for ufologists it seems, and from what I have heard him say seems to be in congruence to what God has said to His prophets in the Pearl of Great Price – “Worlds without number have I created…” or even Enoch said “… a million earths like this would not even be a beginning to the number of thy creations…”.

Anyway… in a nutshell the things Cliff has said has only confirmed my beliefs about God… a secondary source unrelated to the church… and that in itself is pretty neat.

BLC

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info and your thoughts BLC!!

I liked the example of the wooden desk.

I heard of the Earth being created from other materials possibly other worlds.

I guess I never really thought that it meant that some of those old fossils, rocks and petrified materials could be so incredibly old because those materials were older than the Earth to begin with.

I have always enjoyed the idea of life outside of our own.

to be honest with you I have always been a little bit of a skeptic when it came to Aliens visiting us from other planets. I am not saying that it couldn’t happen. However I tend to lean more towards the belief that most of the sightings were sensitive and classified equipment being tested by the U.S. Military or a Military of a different country.

Although I will most defiantly check out Clifford E. Stone. I enjoy hearing multiple sides of the story. Who knows I may even change my mind about those sightings after I check out some of his info.

💡

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

They really just have strong amounts of faith. OR!! Perhaps they are saying they Know to fit it. After all Everyone else says “I KNOW” so shouldn’t we all say that we KNOW??

I think if people start saying they have Faith instead of claiming to have Knowledge less people would FREAK OUT!! when they realize they DON’T REALLY KNOW!!

Oh, my goodness. That is exactly what I have been trying to say myself in another thread. You did so much better than I did.

[Anonymous]

You must be referring to this post:

Katzpur wrote:

I just got home from Fast and Testimony Meeting. I swear I’m not going to subject myself to another one for a good long time. Today, it was one little kid after another, all of them saying, “I love my mom and dad and I know the Church is true inthenameofJesusChristAmen.” That in and of itself almost put me over the edge, but then a man I didn’t know took his two kids up to the stand. The oldest one was maybe four years old. He stood at the microphone and his dad whispered in his ear what to say. He’d repeat it, and then his dad would whisper the next sentence. Of course he was prompted to say that he knows the Church is true. Then the dad held the even younger kid up to the microphone because he wasn’t even tall enough to reach it when standing on the riser. The kid was maybe three at the most. He just stared at the audience for a few seconds and then buried his head in his dad’s chest. The dad says, “He’s shy, but what he wants to say is that he knows the Church is true.”

Who does this dad think he’s kidding? And what kind of a favor does he think he’s doing for his kids? By the time they’re old enough to actually gain a testimony, it won’t even occur to them that they need to. They’ll have been saying, “I know the Church is true” for nearly twenty years by then and will never have given it a moment’s thought. I’m sorry. I know this is just a rant and I’m probably coming across as a real jerk, but this is not what I go to Church to hear. This is religious indoctrination. That’s all it is. Why do we encourage our kids to parrot us instead of encouraging them to think for themselves? And why do so many people in the audience just eat it up? It just drives me up a wall. Sorry.

To be honest with you I think your post was well spoken. I have been attending a Singles ward off and on for about 6 years now. I have almost forgotten the Silliness of little children being whispered ” I Know the church is true” by their parents and then repeating it.

I think you make a very good point here. It is becoming more and more common for people to “Fall Away 🙄 ” in their late teens and 20s. I think part of it is the fact that they are told to Know by their parents.

Personally I feel blessed for reasons that my parents never did the fake whispering child testimonies with me or anyone else in my Family.

My Father did not go on a mission and had his own moments of Inactivity.

My Mother came from a Semi active family. Though she lived right next to an LDS church while growing up she would go off and on.

So although I was raised in the church I feel like I wasn’t raised overly churchy. Although we were encouraged to go to church it wasn’t an absolute expectation.

Some members of my family no longer self identify as Mormon, however they still have a great amount of respect for the LDS church. I feel that if my parents forced us to go then those who are no longer Mormon would also Hate the church with a passion.

I personally do have issue with some of the Mormon Culture, however I still am okay with the LDS church to remain relatively active. Though I am not an RM, I haven’t gone through the Temple and haven’t really felt a burning desire to go. I am an Elder however and have used my priesthood to aid sick friends and family. I defiantly have a testimony of priesthood and have seen little miracles. I think those little experiences is what keeps me going.

Although I am annoyed when people tell me that I am not a “TRUE ELDER” until I go through the Temple. When I hear comments like that it greatly offends me. Just because I can’t help out on the Ward Temple night doesn’t mean I can’t serve in the church in other ways. Instead of going to the Temple with my Fellow Elders I will instead make an extra point to show up to service projects. I have gladly served as Security in troubling church parking lots. (We have issues with people breaking into cars. Having mean faced people like me on Security prevents theft.)

I remain as an Anomaly The Elder who is not endowed.

To the church I say Take me as I am or leave me as I am. If they leave me as I am I do have other places to go. In the past I have explored other belief systems and participated in some as well. Though I no longer practice these other beliefs I do feel the welcoming whispers.

I also feel welcomed enough by the LDS church. So for now I remain.

[Anonymous]

I know I’m a little late in welcoming you, but I would like to add my own “Welcome” to the masses. I’ve enjoyed reading your post and following along through this thread. Your What If’s hit a soft spot with me, because like you, I have also had thoughts along those same lines. When I uncovered the white salamander hoax, it only added to these questions.

greenapples wrote:

I think those little experiences is what keeps me going.

Like you, the little experiences are what keep me going. Although I have many questions and doubts, I cannot simply dismiss the little experiences in my own life. These things definitely serve as the driftwood I cling to when I feel like I am drowning in the waves of the storm.

You are not alone (as I’m sure you’ve come to realize). Welcome!

[Anonymous]

For some reason the Salamander Hoax never really bothered me too much.

It is unfortunate that Mark Hoffman ended up killing people. Perhaps it can be a little discouraging to think that the presidency of the church should have Known or whatever.

Mark Hoffman was such a Habitual Liar that he could practically lie to himself. He was and excellent salesman and made himself appear so cool headed and knowledgeable on just about any subject.

Most of my issues are personal experiences that caused me to ask “What If?”

Other little issues I have are with some of the leadership in the early years of the church. It came to be a little bit of a shock to see that the church today was not very much like the church in the times of Brigham young. It was a shock to me of some of the things Brigham Young preached and his personal remarks.

For a time I even investigated the other Mormon churches that did not Follow Brigham young and became their own separate church after the death of Joseph Smith Jr.

I found the Community of Christ interesting. However I personally did not feel that I was totally at home with them.

Even though I have little issues with certain things I feel at home with the LDS church.

[Anonymous]

Agree with your assessment of the Hoffman affair. Sums up my own view more or less. Hoffman was a genius conman.

CoC is interesting, but it too has its faults. Their system of tithing is worse than ours I believe. CoC has a better record with women and blacks although I think they are too wishy washy in some directions.

[Author]

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