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A few nights ago I was at a party with a bunch of LDS people. As the party began to die out for some reason religeon became a topic of conversation. I told the people somewhat of my spiritual struggles and Journey.
I pointed out that whenever I have gone up on Fast and Testimony meeting I would never mention anything about the Book of Mormon. I might reference the Bible but I would never say ” I KNOW” I would say that I have Faith.
I came to find that there were people close to my age who had some of the same struggles.
The people there admitted that for the most part they were agnostic!
They thought that it was really cool that I did so much research in my own religion as well as beleif systems of others.
We spoke of the Fowler Stages of Faith.
We all agreed that we were in Stage 4 and probably heading towards Stage 5 for reasons that we all kind of let go of the anger; yet we all attend church for the sake of community.
Let the powers of the Red Crown and the Green Apple link up and unite as one!! For a more complete story. http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12039 ” class=”bbcode_url”> &t=12039″>http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12039 Sounds like you found a little pocket of people at that party that could be supportive. A rare find. Most of the time people would label you apostate or go into defensive mode. I find that when I broach ideas that are not mainstream, the TBM’s in my ward just listen and say nothing. I think they go away with a lesser opinion of me as a Mormon, which I don’t really care about anymore…you are fortunate to be able to discuss such things face to face.
Well I had the luck of speaking with some folks who were not TBMs. One of the girls at the party got a text from a friend in singles ward who said that since she has lost weight all kinds of guys have been looking and noticing her.
I mentioned that I always thought the friend was cute but that I kind of felt like we wouldn’t mesh well due to a possible difference in opinion with religious theology.
This brought up questions from the friends at the party.
I just kind of hinted at the fact that I didn’t believe in the same way anymore. Everyone in the room smiled and noded and began quoting church history that they felt were shocking and we found that we were all on the same page.
I usually openly share my opinion on this.
However My Bishop knows where I stand currently.
I told him how I felt about the Book of Abraham and I told him a little bit of what I have known since the 4th grade.
I mentioned that even if there were more scrolls the story of the Book of Abraham are told through the images printed on the pages.
Modern day Egyptology does not support what it said.
I told him that there is a part of me that is willing to believe that Joseph Smith Jr. went out into the woods, prayed to God, saw Jesus and God, Saw Angels and truly translated real plates. A part of me is willing to believe all this. However when it comes to the book of abraham the journals mention that he is trying to figure out the language of the egyptians. He does not use any seer stones of any kind.
With this in mind. I am willing to kind of believe that maybe the visions could have possibly happened. but that He was full of himself to try to translate something that he really wasn’t supposed to but passed it off as if he could forthe sake of fulfilling his personal ego.
I then added that I don’t openly share this with members because I don’t want to smash up their world. I would only mention it if they felt kind of the sameway and they let me in on it.
Some people feel the need to create a re-introduction and that’s fine. I however prefer to just add to what has been said earlier that way I could look at what I had written and see kind of a time line as to where I am at now.There was once a time that I thought I was a Fowler Stage 4 that was well on my way to stage 5.
The reality of the situation is I can’t progress in my home town. I can’t progress hanging out in my parents basement.
I think in some ways I might still be partly in stage 3. I will still sometimes pray and hope to get an answer. I don’t usually address God as God or Heavenly Father. For the most part I don’t pray. I honestly only pray when I am in nature. Sometimes I just pray to the energies of nature. I try to really breath in and become part of nature when I am surrounded by it.
Even if I am slightly stage 3 I feel that I am very much in stage 4.
I find myself rather annoyed with so many people at fast and testimony meetings. I am annoyed with people claiming to have knowledge of things they actually have faith in. I am also annoyed with boastful stories of how much better they are than their NON member friends because they have the TRUE GOSPEL in their lives.
You know I am actually jealous of my NON member friends. I am jealous of my former high school class mates. There are people who make a living bar tending, delivering beer. There are plenty of people who make plenty of Money because they are willing to go the extra mile on Sunday and get that overtime pay.
Looking back on my life I feel that I have totally lived a sheltered life. I always thought that beer, wine, whiskey, dance clubs, strip clubs, casinos, Coffee, tea AND MUCH MORE!! were soooo evil!!
I thought of this today when I some random cop movie on T.V. and there was of course a few naked lady scenes and a strip club scene.
I have never gone to a strip club in my life. My final year of High School there were a group of guys who used to go out to a strip club every Friday night when I was in High School. I was 18 and totally could have gone. I was invited to go so many times. an 18 year old with an I.D. could get in but we just couldn’t order alcohol. I didn’t participate because I wanted to make sure that I was worthy to be an unpaid priest in my church.
Where the hell have those decisions led me? It led to a path that made me overly sheltered and overly shy. For the sake of trying to be worthy of priesthood I have taken all my relationships overly slow. Within the time that it would take me to have a first kiss most couples would be having SAFE PROTECTED SEX!
I turned down Sex so many times my final year of High School. There was just something SEXY about a super senior. Aside from that some of my classes were general education courses opened to all grades. Some of the 10th grade girls who had just turned 16 (Age to have the right of consent) Wanted to have age 16 truly be sweet with sexual freedom to any guy that they felt was kinda cute.
I turned it down because I wanted to be worthy to be an unpaid priest in my church.
Granted there was an issue with teen pregnancy at my school. Perhaps in someways I feared that this would happen to one of the girls who wanted to experience certain pleasures with me.
Aside from that I feel that maybe if I would have just said YES and made sure we were extra safe with some really good high end protection it would have loosened me up. It may have opened my eyes to certain things. Maybe I would have had enough sense to have stood up for myself earlier in life.
All of that is in the past though.
There is too much anger and too many reminders of betrayal of former friends, fights with family and great disappointments from former local church leaders.
Within me is a great deal of rage. A walk in one of the local parks or a trip to the Puget sound or Ocean can help some. It isn’t enough though.
My current situation kind of sucks. I don’t have steady work. I am holding onto $25 and a gift card to Red Robin (YUM!) gift card for a rainy day.
I attend church but I don’t feel that I totally fit in for reasons that I don’t truly believe. I can’t stand certain people and try to avoid them. I have grown tired of being a home teacher. I have grown tired of so many people who see me as a spiritual giant with answers. All I have done is listened and given personal insights and shared thoughts on certain Psychological theories. I am not a Psychologist and I am not a Bishop. I don’t want to be the go to person for spiritual or psychological needs.
I am tired of all the unpaid service. If I was a Psychologist I would be educated enough to maybe actually help. I would be paid for the time I spent with these people.
If I am supposed to be blessed for giving up so much time with these people THEN WHERE THE HELL ARE MY BLESSINGS!?
If I was a Psychologist I would have made thousands of dollars for the hours that I spent with these people. Where are the thousands of blessings that I am supposed to be getting?
I am going to pray tonight. No more of this please bless…
NO!
I demand that I get blessed! I paid my dues thus far and when I had a steady job I paid a little more than 10% It is my turn. I need a blessed vessel to take me out of my current situation and out of my current living quarters and into something better.
If the Mormon God refuses blessings then I will start praying to another God that WILL!!
GREENAPPLESgreenapples, There are so many things I would like to say, but let me share only a few:
1) If the LDS Church kept you from participating in the objectification of women in strip clubs and having sex in high school, I personally think that’s a wonderful thing. Fwiw, I don’t think those are good examples on which to focus when I believe the overall issue you are feeling is oppression of sexual release and a feeling of guilt over sexual thoughts and feelings. Those last two things are serious issues that I believe need to be addressed in the modern LDS Church – but strip clubs and high school sex are not, imo.
2) Yes, you need to find a way to begin a life as an independent adult. I think that is critical, since it’s hard to build an individual, adult faith living dependant on your parents.
3) If you are looking for a God who will give you whatever you want, there are choices out there for you. Personally, I would work instead on trying to figure out what you personally, as an individual, believe is right and wrong – then strive to worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience. It might sound similar at first, but those approaches are very different in important ways. For many people, even heterodox members, that can happen inside the LDS Church – and our mission here is to try to help you make it happen inside the LDS Church; for some, however, it can’t. Figuring out your own faith before making a drastic change is vital, which is why I think you need to work on figuring out exactly what you believe or want to believe first.
Iow, in the end, this should be a positive process of understanding, not a negative process of rejection – and recognizing that the positive approach takes longer than the negative approach is an initial step.
You shall have to let me in on what your internet abbreviations mean. No I don’t feel guilt over sexual thoughts and feelings. It is in general nature to have sexual thoughts and feelings. All creatures of the world have sexual thoughts and feelings.
At this point in time I don’t really feel like a strip club is evil. I would see nothing wrong with a wife letting her husband see some girls dance around a pole. In exchange she gets to go out to see the Chip N Dale dancers or a male strip club.
I’m just kind of looking back on my life and seeing that I have been sheltered and that I’ve stayed too long.
My father had quite the temper growing up. He seemed to enjoy belittling people. He was verbally abusive and sometimes physically abusive.
I slowly began standing up for myself my final year of High School. On the day of graduation he was being a complete douche to me. It was a day of my celebration. I went into my room not to cry or pout but to try to tame the inner beast. He pushed me a bit further and that inner beast that I tried so hard to keep caged up unleashed. I forced him out of his chair I pushed him against the wall. I slammed his head against the wall. When He began to turn around I punched him as hard as I could and he went down.
You see he didn’t take his diabetes seriously, which is partly what I felt caused him to have such mood swings.
As time went on things got worse. He would yell and belittle people in the house. He would cause my mother to be in tears. I would intervene and sometimes the intervention was not pretty at all.
He thought that being Mr. Ex wrestler and boxing star meant that he could take anyone down. He enjoyed running his mouth. I gladly warned him and tried to remind him of our past encounters but I don’t think he remembered those. I told him to knock it off or that I would knock him out. He would say ” yeah lets see you try.” Other times he would say ” Yeah I’ll give you a free one.”
The Free ones I always gladly partook. With him stunned
:crazy: and googly eyed I gladly took another and another and another until he was down!!We had our share of fist fights and I always ROSE UP VICTORIOUS!!
š although there was that one time that I underestimated his ability to throw a decent punch with his left. A tooth on my right side is now slightly bent and chipped.
I being a southpaw gave him some quick right jabs and a strong LEFT CROSS TO FACE and he went DOWN!!
The bigger they are the harder they fall!!
:lolno: when he was down I would stand and wait for him to get back up and look for signs if he wanted to still fight. If he wanted to still fight then we would continue but if not I would leave him be.
Sadly my Dad doesn’t remember any of this. I gladly reminded him after he had his weightless surgery and started to take his diabetes seriously.
I told him that I wanted to go into the Navy. That it seemed to be the right thing to do. I said ” you know I wanted to do this for many years now. I honestly stuck around here and see what the local job market could do for me. I stuck around to protect the rest of the house from you. If you ever call me names, belittle me, call me worthless sack of
:shh: ever again I will gladly take revenge of my bent chipped tooth. I won’t stop at just knocking you down and out. NO I will keep hitting until I see you spitting teeth!”After that our relationships seems to have gotten better oddly enough. My dad spoke to my mother and asked about the comments and the fist fights. My mother of course nodded and said ” Yeah you two were at each others throats for a couple years and
Old-Timer wrote:
Iow, in the end, this should be a positive process of understanding, not a negative process of rejection – and recognizing that the positive approach takes longer than the negative approach is an initial step.High, in the beginning, GreenApples was born of rage. The rage grew strong and became his ally. He brought order to the lands of the orchard. His time upon the tree has been overspent and must leave the lands of the orchard. To the mighty farmer that was meant to tend his tree? Where was he? Was he feeding me? Did he give me the gift of rage? Am I honored to be part of the left hand GOD!! Am I a modern day Van helsing! All this is a mystery though the mighty farmer called God seems to work his farm and orchards in mysterious ways I’m told.The Rage gives desire and the rage creates goals. Perhaps the long positive approach is good for later or perhaps it is a different path for another. For now I stick with the Rage.GREENAPPLESāREDCROWNHi Green Apples! I feel that my life experience has been so different than mine that it would be very difficult for me to try and tell you what to do.
I am concerned that a life of semi-justified violence and promiscuity might be just as lonely and hard as the monk like restrictions of the LDS church can be. What Iām going to share is pretty personal. I know that my wife would be exceptionally hurt by even one visit to a strip club (partly because this is held up as the single event that ruined a marriage that she is close to and partly because that would put into question all sorts of other things like her relative attractiveness and my commitments to cleave unto her and none else etc.). I would advise caution for going down a road where the person that you might be most compatible with is the person that doesn’t mind you going to strip clubs because she wants to do the same thing on the side. I feel that this would take a whole lot of wonderful companion candidates off of the table and potentially open up different and painful complexities.
Independent of how this might affect my wife. Yes, I am a man and I am attracted to women. One of the dangers that I would worry about for me concerning pornography or strip clubs is the variety of women and their willingness to do pretty much anything. This would become a problem for me if my wetting my sexual thirst for variety left me less able to fully commit myself (and be fulfilled in that commitment) to one companion that is a full partner. She is not there to be objectified or submit to my sexual fantasies no matter how they may make her feel. How could I become one with one woman when one woman is no longer enough for me?
So I am mightily ignorant of your situation. I can only really speak to my own situation. Not everyone who visits a strip club finds that they are not satisfied with a single woman for the rest of their life, but I know enough about me and my feelings/lusts – That this really could become a problem for me – to be always consuming and never satisfied. My decisions are not dictated to me by the church. I am a grown man. But I do attempt to do what is best for me and those around me with respect and consideration for others. I consider this to be part of taking accountability for my actions and being someone that is responsible.
I wish you all the best in your own spiritual journey and hope you find my situation to be something helpful to consider.
Well I am currently single and have purposefully remained single for the past little bit. There are few girls that I feel I could have a relationship with and others that I would gladly get to know a little better. I’ve had these strong inner feelings that I would not be sticking around my local town.
There is also an inner decision if I really want to stick around in the church or not.
Do I really want to raise a family in the church?
I didn’t always have the greatest experiences within the church. Unfortunately I trusted certain people to be honest in the church and trusted that certain work positions would have been good for me just because the person giving me the application was Mormon. Things happened that I’m not in the mood to talk about right now but maybe later.
I think youth can have good experiences at a Boys and Girls club or YMCA. There might be a slight hint of religion within organizations like this but they aren’t over baring and kids won’t be raised with false trust of Just because someone belongs to an origination doesn’t mean that they are good people.
All these thoughts are in mind and I remain single.
Outside the realm of strict religion going to a strip club or even just a casino with some show girls on stage isn’t a big deal.
I am currently Single so my mind set is that of a single man with plenty of options. I have not committed myself to a woman nor has a woman committed herself to me.
If I was married my situation might be a little different.
I always promised myself that I would not be living in my parent’s house or in-law’s house after marriage. I also wanted a place to call our own.
The military defiantly has some options for married couples.
Again as a single man I have options.
:thumbup: GREEN“> APPLES[/size] I used to get bothered sometimes when someone would say “I know” when giving a testimony, but then I realized I can’t determine what someone knows or does not know. Spiritual knowledge is difference from scientific knowledge. I think small children know better than any of us because they don’t complicate things. Maybe that is one way in which we need to become like children, for of such is the kingdom of God. As a child, I felt God’s love, so I knew He was real. I felt good in church, so I knew it is the true church.
greenapples wrote:I am currently Single so my mind set is that of a single man with plenty of options. I have not committed myself to a woman nor has a woman committed herself to me.
Fair enough. I guess I was talking about living my life in preparation for the partner I would hope to someday marry. However, I said upfront that your life experience seems to have been very different than mine. You are the only person in a position to determine what (if anything) that works in my life has any applicability to your life. I can accept that.
Nephite wrote:I used to get bothered sometimes when someone would say “I know” when giving a testimony, but then I realized I can’t determine what someone knows or does not know. Spiritual knowledge is difference from scientific knowledge.
I think small children know better than any of us because they don’t complicate things. Maybe that is one way in which we need to become like children, for of such is the kingdom of God. As a child, I felt God’s love, so I knew He was real. I felt good in church, so I knew it is the true church.
I suppose a child might feel they know. Then again a child is very much in Fowler Stage 1 & 2.
I feel that an adult should say that they have faith or believe.
Roy wrote:Fair enough. I guess I was talking about living my life in preparation for the partner I would hope to someday marry. However, I said upfront that your life experience seems to have been very different than mine. You are the only person in a position to determine what (if anything) that works in my life has any applicability to your life. I can accept that.
Don’t get me wrong Roy I do appreciate your comments and thoughtfulness. I understand where you are coming from.
Now that I’m in my late 20s I see 21 year old girls as children without frontal brain lobes.
Many of the girls my age have been married and divorced or had a kid earlier in life with a boyfriend. They aren’t exactly the ideal Molly Mormon mold so I don’t feel bad that I’ve been tainted. I don’t feel bad if I end up being more tainted. I don’t fit the mold for the dream guy.
I am not an RM, I’ve done my share of drinking alcohol. I’ve been to casinos before.
As mentioned the girls closer to my age have had their share of personal fun outside the church as well. I feel that in general when a Mormon has chosen to do their own thing they go all out and get themselves into trouble.
I’m sure you are all aware of this and have probably seen this. Maybe the caution is to help prevent this.
I will have you know though that I have very strict rules to keep myself from going too crazy.
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angelic008.gif [/img] When I choose to go to the casino I only bring the money that I am willing to spend for entertainment. If that money is gone then I don’t get more. I usually play on the machines that have little cost with betting. I can usually play for a couple hours with just $10 for reasons that they have a tendency to let you win after awhile. Each time I win anything a point is put on my card. Those points can be used to buy food so I usually eat there as well. I don’t drink alcohol at the casino only water and soda.
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool21.gif [/img] When I get home I change my clothes and take a shower. I wash my smokey smelling casino clothes ASAP
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/beerfunnel.gif [/img] When it comes to drinking thus far I only drink at home. I only drink at night when I’ve decided that I am done for the evening. I already know what it feels like to get drunk and I already know what a hangover feels like. I only drink enough to make me feel a little more than buzzed and I call it good. I hang out in my room. listen to music and sometimes doze off to sleep for a bit. It has been awhile since I’ve had a drink probably well over a month. I don’t need it but it helps smooth things over.
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-hug010.gif [/img] If I did ever choose to drink at a bar I would make sure that it was either a short walk away or I would just have a taxi take me home.
I am opposed to meaningless sex and I insist on using safe sex.
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sex005.gif [/img] I’ve turned down plenty of sexual opportunities either because it would be meaningless or the girl for whatever reason didn’t want the use of a condom condom
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-hug014.gif [/img] (This next part isn’t really a rule but more why I feel comfortable with the last rule)
If it’s a girl that I’ve know for a bit and she is cool with practicing safe sex I see nothing wrong with that.I also feel that a couple really needs to be sexually compatible with each other. It is probably better to find that out before marriage rather than after.
Sure weighting until marriage to have sex is honorable. It sure would be unfortunate to find out that my wife and I aren’t sexually compatible at all. Aside from that as mentioned earlier most girls my age even within the church would not truly be a virgin on the night of marriage.
These rules that I’ve set for myself ARE NOT just guidelines.
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-green/greensmilies-030.gif [/img] I very much hold myself accountable and follow my own codes.GREEN[/color] “> [/color] [/size] greenapples wrote:Nephite wrote:I used to get bothered sometimes when someone would say “I know” when giving a testimony, but then I realized I can’t determine what someone knows or does not know. Spiritual knowledge is difference from scientific knowledge.
I think small children know better than any of us because they don’t complicate things. Maybe that is one way in which we need to become like children, for of such is the kingdom of God. As a child, I felt God’s love, so I knew He was real. I felt good in church, so I knew it is the true church.
I suppose a child might feel they know. Then again a child is very much in Fowler Stage 1 & 2.
I feel that an adult should say that they have faith or believe.
I certainly don’t mean to argue with you. I’m just sharing how I have dealt with this. I reckon if someone can stop being bothered by certain language used when sharing a testimony, then the meeting can be more enjoyableš I wrote before that spiritual knowledge is difference from scientific knowledge. So when someone says “I know,” it has a different meaning from what people usually use it for. If someone feels that they know, why worry about it? For what it’s worth, the scriptures say we CAN know:
Ex. 6:7 “…and ye shall
knowthat I am the Lord your God….” John 7:17 “If any man will do his will, he shall
knowof the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” John 8:31-32 “…If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall
knowthe truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 1 Ne. 22:12 “…and they shall
knowthat the Lord is their Savior and their Redeemer, the Mighty One of Israel.” Alma 5:46 “Behold, I say unto you they are made
knownunto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might knowthese things of myself. And now I do knowof myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.” Moro. 10:5 “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may
knowthe truth of all things.” Anyway, even if we don’t agree, I hope this is something you can find peace with. And I really hope the best for you.
I know == I believe strongly I know = I don’t really know, but everyone says this so I will say it too.
I know = I really do know because I had an experience I took to mean God spoke to me
I know = I actually HAD a spiritual manifestation.
We don’t know what “I know” means, so, I just let it wash over me, and tend to believe it means “I believe strongly”.
Exactly what Shwan and SD said – with one more thing: We have lots of words that have multiple meanings. I’m totally fine with “I know” being in that category.
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