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I suppose if we’re all sharing, my morning at home was OK, nothing to crow about. The tabernacle choir broadcast (the closest I get to a worship service) had all spiritual type music, which I don’t mind. I wondered why and I guess I have to attribute it to being the day before MLK Day. Again, I don’t mind, I like a good spiritual every now and then, it was just different. Rites of Passage comes on BYUTV after the tabernacle, but I turned it off after a few minutes when the “rite” was going on a mission. I have undertaken reading the New testament again, I’m still in Matthew, but I enjoyed that. Sorry you had a bad day, rebeccad. I don’t go because of days like that and probably would have had a bad day had I gone, which is sad – it really is that angst that keeps me from going. I don’t want to jump on Nibbler’s bandwagon, but this “Hasten the Work” thing has really taken hold in lots of places and I think much in the same way you talk about – with an interest in goals and numbers as opposed to individual salvation. I’m sure that the inventors of the program didn’t mean it that way, but my observations are that it’s turning out that way. IMO, qualitative analysis is much more important than quantitative analysis in this case. It’s one of the things that bothers me about how we run missions, it’s all about numbers and the conquering heroes are those who post the biggest numbers.
So with your bishop and the sick kid, isn’t it going to become obvious at some point in the not too distant future that the kid isn’t cured and does indeed still have cancer? What’s he going to say then?
(BTW, I used to read Alexander’s Terrible No Good Very Bad Day to my kids all the time. Good title for your post.)
Sorry you had such a negative Sunday. I think your daughter should challenge the guy to a run. Or let some moms let him know that birthing children is a much harder task than a pull up, so maybe he should lay off the “weak women” topic. : ) :thumbup: We also had a Hastening the Work sacrament meeting. Somehow I didn’t let it bog me down, and I tried to find some positives. Statistics on paper seems a cold way to go about HTW, so I hope there are other things in place to help those already in the ward who could use it as well as those who are investigating.
I hope next week is better for you. Maybe have a hallway class next week with someone you get along with. It helps me break up a long Sunday.
: )
Quote:Priesthood just annoyed me. JSF wrote a letter in 1948 to his son saying he had never had a vision of the Lord. But the teacher and class members kept referring to it as “at this stage he hadn’t seen him” or “this was before he was prophet and he hadn’t seen the Lord yet.” I wanted to point out that he never claimed he had, that no apostle had made this claim for over 100 years (I think Lorenzo Snow was perhaps the last one).
I mentioned this to a friend after the class quietly. He smiled and said, “thank goodness. Imagine the minefield and embarrassment if our leaders were frequently claiming visits by deity/angels. My colleagues think we’re mad enough already.”
Actually, Joseph F. Smith was the last one that I’m aware of (see D&C 138), but I agree with your friend’s “thank goodness” comment.
mackay11 wrote:Priesthood just annoyed me. JSF wrote a letter in 1948 to his son saying he had never had a vision of the Lord. But the teacher and class members kept referring to it as “at this stage he hadn’t seen him” or “this was before he was prophet and he hadn’t seen the Lord yet.” I wanted to point out that he never claimed he had, that no apostle had made this claim for over 100 years (I think Lorenzo Snow was perhaps the last one).
BRM April, 1985, certainly seemed to be saying he had never seen the Lord. I remember actually thinking as such at the time:
BRM wrote:I testify that he is the Son of the Living God and was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person.
I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.
But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way. –BRM, April, 1985
It’s at about 14:15 of BRM’s final conference address:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7boTBtn3w It’s interesting that people have that desire to project visions on our prophets and apostles. It reminds me of an experience from my mission. An apostle visited our mission and some missionaries drove him to the meeting. During the ride one of the missionaries had the gumption to ask: Have you seen Jesus? The prophet and apostles probably get this sort of question all the time. In retrospect the apostle’s answer was perfect. He just looked at the elder right in the eyes… and didn’t say a word. The missionary came away from the experience with the confirmation that the apostle had personally seen Jesus; that knowing look, the silence meaning it was an experience that was too sacred to talk about. Someone else could have come away from that same experience thinking that the glaring silence translated into “c’mon, I can’t believe you are asking me that.” Another person might take the silence to mean, “well I guess you haven’t then.”
The silent stare turned out to be the perfect answer. It allowed the person that asked the question to come up with their own answer based entirely on the faith they had walking into the experience.
mackay11 wrote:But the teacher and class members kept referring to it as “at this stage he hadn’t seen him” or “this was before he was prophet and he hadn’t seen the Lord yet.”
That’s too bad. I might be tempted to ask “Is that our takeaway from his comments?” Immediately after claiming he had never received a personal visitation he said “But it is not necessary.” It sounds like that message was warped into a personal visitation being very necessary. I should have recognized that as a potential pitfall when reading the lesson beforehand. It never hurts to be prepared.
In PEC people last night were talking about the P’hood lesson being one of the best they’d been to in ages. I’ve been feeling bad since then that I must have completely missed something. I didn’t get anything very special out of it. Have I become dulled/immune to actually appreciating good moments?
No, I don’t think so. People are different and something that speaks to one person might not speak to another. mackay11 wrote:Have I become dulled/immune to actually appreciating good moments?
I worry myself with respect to that. I do try to focus on what was good about a lesson and quickly forget about the comments I objected to. Sometimes it can be harder to do depending on how things went.
Besides, it was PEC. If someone pipes up and says a particular lesson or talk was the best they had heard in ages no one is going to want to be the voice of the contrarian. No one is going to say “well except for that part where we tried to second guess the manual and speculate that JFS did see the savior” even if the majority was thinking it. It’s leaders among leaders. Human nature/social science would dictate that we wonder how we are spiritually deficient when the group appears to share a common spiritual experience… perhaps the group was just going along with the group. Bishop says it was the best lesson ever… yes, me too.
You ever get that way during some of the sessions of GC? Boy that session was great!!!
Uh… yeah, it was. nibbler wrote:No, I don’t think so. People are different and something that speaks to one person might not speak to another.
mackay11 wrote:Have I become dulled/immune to actually appreciating good moments?
I worry myself with respect to that. I do try to focus on what was good about a lesson and quickly forget about the comments I objected to. Sometimes it can be harder to do depending on how things went.
Besides, it was PEC. If someone pipes up and says a particular lesson or talk was the best they had heard in ages no one is going to want to be the voice of the contrarian. No one is going to say “well except for that part where we tried to second guess the manual and speculate that JFS did see the savior” even if the majority was thinking it. It’s leaders among leaders. Human nature/social science would dictate that we wonder how we are spiritually deficient when the group appears to share a common spiritual experience… perhaps the group was just going along with the group. Bishop says it was the best lesson ever… yes, me too.
You ever get that way during some of the sessions of GC? Boy that session was great!!!
Uh… yeah, it was. 
So yesterday was even worse. I honestly didn’t even get through the sacrament.
Started with ward council being cancelled and everyone being told except me. (actually I wasn’t more than slightly annoyed at this, I mean, less meetings are always good)
Then my daughter earned her honor bee and was awarded it in Sacrament Meeting. I already have a problem with this because boys get a court of honor all to themselves which, in our ward, they cancel YW for all the girls to attend, yet the YW get a pendant in SM. But it was clear that the bishop had
no idea whatsoeverwhat the award was, what it meant, or how my daughter earned it. He just didn’t care. It was “we are awarding this, ummm what is this? To (daughter) because she” ___pause, looks down at book and read a partial explanation of requirements___. Then without telling me (I’m in the RS presidency) 2/3 of the RS board including all of the teachers except the one that was called last Sunday were released.
On the one hand, I am mostly frustrated with our bishop because he is the one that directly did all of these things. On the other hand, the church is structured in a way that makes these things happen. The YW program simply isn’t as wide-ranging, challenging or accepted as the scouting program. Bishops are supposed to call members of the Relief Society program in consultation with the presidency, but they don’t and there are no consequences. It is in the Personal Progress book guidelines that awards are to be given in sacrament meeting (although totally the Bishop’s fault that he has no idea what the awards are).
Honestly I think I need a break from the church right now. I dropped my daughter off for seminary today, and going into the building just filled me with such anger and frustration.
rebeccad wrote:On the one hand, I am mostly frustrated with our bishop because he is the one that directly did all of these things. On the other hand, the church is structured in a way that makes these things happen. The YW program simply isn’t as wide-ranging, challenging or accepted as the scouting program. Bishops are supposed to call members of the Relief Society program in consultation with the presidency, but they don’t and there are no consequences. It is in the Personal Progress book guidelines that awards are to be given in sacrament meeting (although totally the Bishop’s fault that he has no idea what the awards are).
I agree. On the one hand – our church actually does a great job (better than many) at engaging the young men. On the other hand – this is to some extent at the expense of the women/YW in the church.
rebeccad wrote:Honestly I think I need a break from the church right now. I dropped my daughter off for seminary today, and going into the building just filled me with such anger and frustration.
My best wishes for you! I haven’t been to church for a few weeks, and it has been nice. One thing I find is that the further I get from the Church, the more I concentrate on what is important to me… and I don’t mean golf. I mean being a good person, a good father, a good husband (although I’m not perfect in any of those areas which is a good reminder of the power of Christianity). Being away, for me at least, also makes me long for the things that I DO like. Then, when I return, I seem more receptive of those things and less critical of everything else.What made me want to respond is simply that church/religion/spirituality should be how you ease your burdens, and should not be a mechanism for ratcheting up your anger and frustration… so, if it’s not working for you, go find something that does.
On Own Now wrote:
What made me want to respond is simply that church/religion/spirituality should be how you ease your burdens, and should not be a mechanism for ratcheting up your anger and frustration… so, if it’s not working for you, go find something that does.On the one hand I might suggest: “if it’s not working for you, change perspective so part of it does.”
But on the other hand… my wife has stopped going and has found more peace and purpose. She misses being part of the community, but she has found other things she appreciates instead.
On Own Now wrote:rebeccad wrote:Honestly I think I need a break from the church right now. I dropped my daughter off for seminary today, and going into the building just filled me with such anger and frustration.
My best wishes for you! I haven’t been to church for a few weeks, and it has been nice. One thing I find is that the further I get from the Church, the more I concentrate on what is important to me… and I don’t mean golf. I mean being a good person, a good father, a good husband (although I’m not perfect in any of those areas which is a good reminder of the power of Christianity). Being away, for me at least, also makes me long for the things that I DO like. Then, when I return, I seem more receptive of those things and less critical of everything else.What made me want to respond is simply that church/religion/spirituality should be how you ease your burdens, and should not be a mechanism for ratcheting up your anger and frustration… so, if it’s not working for you, go find something that does.
Thanks for pointing this out OON. I am very upfront saying here that I haven’t been to church in over 10 years. I generally fail to mention that I don’t waste my time in not going. I do concentrate on positive things, especially trying to be a better husband, father, and good person. In my years of not going to church I believe I am a better Christian. I do hope this experience has prepared me to return when that time comes. Like wise, church became not a refuge and recharging place for me, but did become a burden and did (and probably still does/would) cause me frustration and even anger. For me, not going has worked to an extent, but I do believe I will return. All of that said, I have “stayed LDS.”
mackay11 wrote:
On the one hand I might suggest: “if it’s not working for you, change perspective so part of it does.”But on the other hand… my wife has stopped going and has found more peace and purpose. She misses being part of the community, but she has found other things she appreciates instead.
That is a great suggestion, but I am totally out of ways to change perspective. I’ve been working off of “see the beauty of the church despite the flaws of the people” and “go for the good you can do for people” and “be selfless and support your family” and “enjoy the good and ignore the bad”. These have all been wonderful and helpful tools, but their usefulness has worn out. I’ve fully committed to all of them, they all have worked for me, but even stretching my rope longer than I thought it was possible, and holding on to the very end of it, every time I think I’ve reached the bottom of the pit, it gets a little deeper.
Are you the RS president or a counselor? If you’re the president then things are not being done properly. If you’re a counselor then the RS president is the one not keeping you in the loop, not the bishopric.
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