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I think there are traps inside of religion…..any religion. Pick one. Pride.Shame.
Fear.
Closed mindedness.
Stagnant in progress/learning.
Getting stuck on law/tradition.
Needing it to define our “goodness”.
Needing it for power or influence or popularity.
I think rather that the gospel is the antithesis of all of these……the antidote to all of these.
(This post is not as eloquent or as thought out as perhaps it should be. Be that as it may. I hope you can read what I couldn’t write.)
Poppyseed wrote:I think there are traps inside of religion…..any religion. Pick one.
Pride.Shame.
Fear.
Closed mindedness.
Stagnant in progress/learning.
Getting stuck on law/tradition.
Needing it to define our “goodness”.
Needing it for power or influence or popularity.
I think rather that the gospel is the antithesis of all of these……the antidote to all of these.
I absolutely agree with this! Thanks PS!
Pride: “we have the truth, we are chosen…”
Shame: I’m not perfect, I need to be more ‘Christlike…”
Fear: “I’ve got to do better or I won’t make it to the CK…I will be punished…”
Closed-mindedness: “The Prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done…”
ditto for the rest..
Isn’t it funny how the very things we talk about in church as to what we “should be doing” seem to contradict what is being done???
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world” (James 1:27). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that we are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all” (Times and Seasons, Mar. 15, 1842, 732).
I agree with you guys that:
“Pride.
Shame.
Fear
Closed mindedness.
Stagnant in progress/learning.
Getting stuck on law/tradition.
Needing it to define our “goodness”.
Needing it for power or influence or popularity.”
are the result for many but these things aren’t advocated…they seem to stem from human weaknesses and not from what is being taught. In fact, these things are addressed and taught against.
Why, then, do we fall into them?
I agree, I think the pure “gospel” as defined by Joseph and Brigham is truth. That’s not saying that every little thing they said is true – that’s saying “truth” defines “gospel”, so anything they said (or any leaders for that matter) that’s not actually true is false doctrine. Today I’m very happy to take that as the definition for Mormondom: “Gospel”=”truth”
Now if we could just figure out what that is exactly. God is obviously patient with us.
Bruce in Montana wrote:“In fact, these things are addressed and taught against.
Why, then, do we fall into them?
I think it often comes from well meaning leaders that say things that people take the wrong way, and head off in the wrong direction. Then/also tradition and culture set in.Quote:Why, then, do we fall into them?
These are failings of any human organization, IMO. The humans bring them in with them, and many of them relate to our insecurities in a group as well as a group’s self-preservation.
Pride. Pride is comparing ourselves to others (regardless of who wins that competition in our minds). This can happen whenever 2 or more people get together if they are so inclined. This, to me, is just part of who some people (maybe even most people) are. We feel pride when we fear we are not good enough. Shame. Adam and Eve were “naked and not ashamed” in the Garden, but when they went to the ward dinner, they covered up. We feel shame when we fear rejection. Fear. Most kinds of fear you see in the church are even more superficial than a fear of going to hell, stuff like fear of what others will think of us, fear of rejection, fear of being different, fear of not being thought good enough. Closed mindedness. And its ugly cousin, GroupThink. The idea that dissenting opinions, anything different, and “others” or “outsiders” are a direct threat to the group (and therefore to individuals who see themselves as self-appointed protectors of the group). Stagnant in progress/learning. A byproduct of closed-mindedness and group think. Getting stuck on law/tradition. Laws & traditions are necessary to organizations if they are to last over time, but a lack of critical thinking about the same is at times dangerous as is an unwillingness to change those that have a “dark side” or a disadvantage to some part of the group (or a downside to humanity if the church desires to have appeal that broad). Needing it to define our “goodness”.This is just losing the individual in the group. It’s sheer laziness, IMO. Needing it for power or influence or popularity.Again, people not wanting to stand on one’s own merits. Any organization can be used in this way by those who are politically minded or who want to exert control on others. I see all these same things in every human organization, and most of those organizations also fight against them. But people seem to come with these particular flaws to overcome. Some are better at it than others. Lay members through the highest level of leaders are all prone to these flaws if they are human beings. If you are surrounded by people with these flaws – relax; that just means you are surrounded by people.
Poppyseed wrote:I think there are traps inside of religion…..any religion. Pick one.
Pride.Shame.
Fear.
Closed mindedness.
Stagnant in progress/learning.
Getting stuck on law/tradition.
Needing it to define our “goodness”.
Needing it for power or influence or popularity.
I think rather that the gospel is the antithesis of all of these……the antidote to all of these.
I cannot disagree with you Poppyseed that they exist in religion but I don’t believe they are traps purposefully put there by religion. I think they are found there because people are in the religion. The gospel is the teachings that are the backdrop for the church in establishing the practices and implementing the gospel principles. I see religion as the sum of these two…gospel and church.**Our religion teaches us pride is the mother of all sin. It does not teach pride, yet imperfect people use it to get what they want.
**Shame and fear can be dispelled by the Atonement. Our religion specifically is preaching to the people who are in need of finding peace from these chains that bind us down…not teaching it to hold down members.
**Close mindedness to me is the opposite of charity…and our religion teaches without charity, you are nothing.
**Our religion also teaches eternal progression and the plan of salvation as the way for all of us to progress in every way. Learning is critical to spiritual growth.
**Getting stuck on law/tradition…religions do seem to teach obedience is critical…not sure what to say about this one.
**Needing it to define “goodness”…I think there is a moral compass in religion that helps define what is good, because God is good and religion teaches us to have faith in knowing His characteristics and become like Him. I think that is ok.
**Power…I think our religion teaches us it is by sad experience that when people get a little authority, they exercise unrighteous dominion, and so it clearly warns against influencing others for sake of pride. On the other hand, power to influence for good is taught as the responsibility of every member…but it is for good purposes, so that is ok with me too.
I guess as I go through all these, I think that religion in many ways is specifically teaching against these, and yet you find this in every religion (I think), which means those people are there for a good reason..they have lots to learn from that religion.
James 1:27 wrote:“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
“The natural man is an enemy to God . . .” AND “We have found . . . all men . . . unrighteous dominion . . .”
The Great Apostasy didn’t end with the Restoration. It is on-going, even within the LDS Church. Re-read Jacob 5, especially the verses dealing with the final pruning. They deal explicitly with the Church AFTER the Restoration. That’s incredibly enlightening, and I wish EVERY member (especially the ones at each extreme) really understood it.
Cool Ray. I will go and read it. L love to hear your thoughts on the subject more fully. Poppyseed, I say you start a new thread on the Jacob 5 allegory …absolutely one of my favorites since my mission days and I haven’t restudied it in a while. I think it would be good for us all to dig into the symbolism and meanings and really understand it. I’d be happy to post something on Sunday when I study it some more, but I won’t have time before then to really get into it.
Quote:I cannot disagree with you Poppyseed that they exist in religion but I don’t believe they are traps purposefully put there by religion.
Perhaps they just travel together.
Poppyseed wrote:Perhaps they just travel together.
They are like poison and the antidote. If there was no poison threatening us, there would be no need of the antidote.
If there was no pride among us, there would be no need for religion. (No 3 hour block of church!! Yeah! More time to watch football…dang, that’s prideful…back to church for me!
My personal definition of religion is this: the practice of transcendent spiritual concepts. So along that idea, I think a broad and common trap is believing religion. By that, I mean believing or focusing exclusively on the practice or the symbol when it is only a means to an end. Examples:
The water of baptism do not actually save a person or make them clean. The prayer does not change someone. The realization of the concepts in that ritual, as they continuously unfold to us over time, that is real.
Taking care of the weak and vulnerable (symbolized by widows and orphans) is an act that changes us. Yes, it is also a very practical social concept, but a loaf of bread does not “save” the giver or the hungry receiver. The loaf is not magical. The idea is though.
It’s things like that. The trap in almost all organized religions is believing them. That sounds harsh intentionally to make a point. I am a strong advocate of organized religion.
Thank you Val for your insight. I love the point you are making. Missing the forest for the trees. I don’t mean to criticize religion. I like religion and support religion and the idea of a religion-less world alarms me. But then I see how religion itself can be a stumbling block and that is what I want to discuss. It seems to me that going thru this life is a little like maneuvering thru a mine field and it seems that there are just as many obstacles and boobies-traps inside the religious arena as outside of it. Perhaps this is part of the test as one who is dying to be AP, for example, suddenly gets the position and then is humbled as they learn what leadership really is. Or maybe they don’t learn….and that is the sadder story.
Sometimes I wonder as I try to observe myself and others and wonder why it is that others behaviors and attitudes and missteps have such power to keep me standing on the sidelines. Am I afraid that I will become like them? Too obsessed with “doing” the gospel to look up and see that they are hurting people in the process. Or too caught up in the status of being the bishops wife or the Stake RS Pres or the one who never missed a Sunday. Or too convinced that black and white thinking is what discerning right and wrong is all about. Or staying safe in all of its different forms.
I really like thinking about the gospel as an antidote. I really like thinking of the church as part of the “world” too. It seems that the adversary would use our own standards against us and it seems there are so many ways to lose ones way. I find it interesting that in Lehi’s dream that it is the rod that we are to hold on to. Not a building ….or not to staying safe inside a corral.
K…one more thought that is completely over there. Sometimes I feel like religion is political. But I will say that among all the religions I am familiar with, it seems the LDS church is very much less so. I think religion is used as a political tool. Which is why the founders of the U.S. were so prescient to encode a separation between religion and government. Especially, self government. Wherein, the individual is sovereign, free to think, act, move, speak, work, play however they so desire. In many ways, organized religion becomes the “life police” because our government is not supposed to. (obviously, this was the intention of the founders) But, religions do tend to veer towards the political, mostly because religions attempt to be all-encompassing; every aspect of life can be dictated by most orthodox religions (muslim, mormon, seventh day, etc.) The zionist-type thinking lends itself to this view. Think mormon fundamentalist, quakers, jews, etc.
When religion and dogma are life-style choices, it leads to all or nothing. Hence, the overt claims by evangelicals that the U.S. is a “christian” nation.
Spirituality is individual. Each person’s path towards “God” is individual. Organized religion usurps this path with dogma, tradition, doctrine, “commandments”, to create unity. But it’s also done because there exists the personality type that craves tradition and rules. Organized religion is perfect for them. For the rest of us, it feels more like a stumbling block to circumnavigate while trying to follow our path. Or, incorporate in varying degrees of interpretation, acceptance and transcendental enlightenment along the individual path.
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