The Traps of Religion

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

Organized religion usurps this path with dogma, tradition, doctrine, “commandments”, to create unity. But it’s also done because there exists the personality type that craves tradition and rules. Organized religion is perfect for them. For the rest of us, it feels more like a stumbling block to circumnavigate while trying to follow our path.

Well said, Swimordie. Very, very true.

And as Hawkgrrrl pointed out…we might only be 4-5% of the population, so religious institutions do appeal to the masses. I served a mission…I saw how people yearn for it.

[Anonymous]

Wow, some cool insights in this thread! Heber, poppy, swim, val, etc. I’ve enjoyed the comments.

Poppyseed wrote:

…Too obsessed with “doing” the gospel to look up and see that they are hurting people in the process. Or too caught up in the status of being the bishops wife or the Stake RS Pres or the one who never missed a Sunday. Or too convinced that black and white thinking is what discerning right and wrong is all about. Or staying safe in all of its different forms.

I really like thinking about the gospel as an antidote. I really like thinking of the church as part of the “world” too. It seems that the adversary would use our own standards against us and it seems there are so many ways to lose ones way. I find it interesting that in Lehi’s dream that it is the rod that we are to hold on to. Not a building ….or not to staying safe inside a corral.

I like that. So is “staying safe” an illusion? We like to think there is safety in certain corners if we’ll tuck ourselves into the right spot.

What does the parable of the talents teach us about safety?

[Anonymous]

@swimordie

Very well said. I agree completely.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

I like that. So is “staying safe” an illusion? We like to think there is safety in certain corners if we’ll tuck ourselves into the right spot.

I’ll bite here. Yes, staying safe is an illusion IMHO. Safe from what? from who? Benjamin Franklin once said:

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

I think this holds for religious tenets as well. If we sacrifice our own spirituality in the name of a religion or dogma, for the safety therein, we have forfeited both.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

Spirituality is individual. Each person’s path towards “God” is individual. Organized religion usurps this path with dogma, tradition, doctrine, “commandments”, to create unity. But it’s also done because there exists the personality type that craves tradition and rules. Organized religion is perfect for them. For the rest of us, it feels more like a stumbling block to circumnavigate while trying to follow our path. Or, incorporate in varying degrees of interpretation, acceptance and transcendental enlightenment along the individual path.

Yes…well said Swim! It reminded me of a letter I read a while back. It makes ya think.:

Religion Contrasts with Spirituality

By Lani Walton

The following appeared in the Opinions Section of the Herald Journal, Logan Utah

To the editor:

– Religion is for the masses. Spirituality is individual.

– Religion is in the mind. Spirituality lives in the heart.

– Religion demands ritual worship. Spiritual knows only the joyful, ritual worship of life.

– Religion teaches of a God of Jealousy, a God to be feared, a God of Vengeance. Spirituality knows only the God of Unconditional Love.

– Religion demands fear. Spirituality knows no fear.

– Religion seeks to command. Spirituality knows no commandments, but these of Love.

– Religion punishes. Spirituality heals.

– Religion claims to speak for God. Spirituality speaks to God.

– Religion demands judgment. Spirituality knows nothing to judge.

– Religion is taught. Spirituality is experienced.

– Religion controls with guilt. Spirituality allows with Love.

– Religion seeks and questions. Spirituality knows and answers.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

– Religion seeks and questions. Spirituality knows and answers.

Rix – this is the one statement I would have written the opposite way. I blogged on this about 13 months ago: http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/ Here’s the teaser from my post:

Quote:

Is your spiritual journey the same as your religious journey, or is religion just one of the facets of your spiritual life?

In breaking through the typologies of the past, Mormonism’s restoration was initially one way to pick up an individual spiritual path again without the cumbersome mores of organized religion. But over time, as the religion has grown and become more bureaucratic, have members abandoned being spiritual for merely being religious?

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Quote:

– Religion seeks and questions. Spirituality knows and answers.

Rix – this is the one statement I would have written the opposite way. I blogged on this about 13 months ago: http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/ Here’s the teaser from my post:

Quote:

Is your spiritual journey the same as your religious journey, or is religion just one of the facets of your spiritual life?

In breaking through the typologies of the past, Mormonism’s restoration was initially one way to pick up an individual spiritual path again without the cumbersome mores of organized religion. But over time, as the religion has grown and become more bureaucratic, have members abandoned being spiritual for merely being religious?

I like that! I would probably have said something like “religion claims to know the answers, spirituality is satisfied with the question.”

(but that wouldn’t have fit….)

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Poppyseed,

I couldn’t agree with you more.

I have always said, (and posted) that many times we become so caught up with “the law” that we never come to know the “Lawgiver”.

Christ taught that eternal life was in “knowing the Lawgiver” – for this is life eternal to know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ who He has sent.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

To the editor:

– Religion is for the masses. Spirituality is individual.

– Religion is in the mind. Spirituality lives in the heart.

– Religion demands ritual worship. Spiritual knows only the joyful, ritual worship of life.

…(SNIP)

I understand this direction of thought, but I have felt a strong sense to push back against this idea for several years — that all the problems would be solved if the world just go rid of organized religion. Somehow individual spirituality is pure and honest, but religion is the enemy that gets in the way.

I think there are two main problems with this in relation to our current historical social environment, which is at a peak pendulum swing of individualism:

1. You can’t amputate religion from spirituality. As soon as an individual puts personal spiritual ideas into regulated material practice, they are creating religion. I argue that even a daily personal meditation is a practice of religion. Humans also can’t help but share their thoughts and ideas. The ones that resonate with others cause groups to form. In absence of organized religion, people make it. We humans can’t help it.

2. I don’t believe that spirituality can fully be realized in solitude, not the full potential of expression. As soon as you involve others … you start to organize a community practice of religion. For example, compassion requires someone to receive it. Charity, to relieve suffering of others, begs for community organization.

And lastly on a personal level, I can’t deny that my experience growing up in a highly organized religion gave me the base from which to launch my own personal spiritual journey. I just don’t believe I could have gotten to where I am now without the experiences that I had. I need something as a reference to judge my position. It is very helpful, even if I am heterodox in many ways. I just don’t believe that I would be better if I had grown up on a desert island, untainted by community religious ideas, and had invented my own spiritual religion without any interference.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Valoel. I do think I understand the point of separation of religion and spirituality, and indeed, that’s where many of us are on this site. But, like Valoel, I’m not ready to do away with organized religion. I do think they have their place, even if it’s not for many of the NFs and NTs of the world. But I do think we ought to battle against the nonsense created by humans in those organizations.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I believe passionately in the concept of communal salvation – that they without us and we without them cannot be made perfect (whole, complete, fully developed). I really dislike the idea that our eternal end is purely a personal pursuit. It justifies WAY too much arrogance and condescension and neglect – and even blatant abuse and disregard.

I believe in organized religion, since I believe in interpersonal sociality and cooperative progression. I believe ALL organizations must be open to modification and reformation and periodic restoration – but I also believe “restoration” is just as much about forward-looking growth and building as it is about backward-looking re-institutionalization. I believe in “restoring” wholeness and harmony – even if that wholeness and harmony never really existed in acutal mortal history.

I like the use of “restored” in Alma when referring to the resurrection, since, if you think about it, that “restoration” is to a state in which we’ve never lived previously. It really is a paradigm shift, but I think it’s an important one.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

I do think we ought to battle against the nonsense created by humans in those organizations.

I agree completely. We should constantly examine ourself and our community, and participate in solutions and progress.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

Rix wrote:

To the editor:

– Religion is for the masses. Spirituality is individual.

– Religion is in the mind. Spirituality lives in the heart.

– Religion demands ritual worship. Spiritual knows only the joyful, ritual worship of life.

…(SNIP)

I understand this direction of thought, but I have felt a strong sense to push back against this idea for several years — that all the problems would be solved if the world just go rid of organized religion. Somehow individual spirituality is pure and honest, but religion is the enemy that gets in the way.

I think there are two main problems with this in relation to our current historical social environment, which is at a peak pendulum swing of individualism:

1. You can’t amputate religion from spirituality. As soon as an individual puts personal spiritual ideas into regulated material practice, they are creating religion. I argue that even a daily personal meditation is a practice of religion. Humans also can’t help but share their thoughts and ideas. The ones that resonate with others cause groups to form. In absence of organized religion, people make it. We humans can’t help it.

2. I don’t believe that spirituality can fully be realized in solitude, not the full potential of expression. As soon as you involve others … you start to organize a community practice of religion. For example, compassion requires someone to receive it. Charity, to relieve suffering of others, begs for community organization.

And lastly on a personal level, I can’t deny that my experience growing up in a highly organized religion gave me the base from which to launch my own personal spiritual journey. I just don’t believe I could have gotten to where I am now without the experiences that I had. I need something as a reference to judge my position. It is very helpful, even if I am heterodox in many ways. I just don’t believe that I would be better if I had grown up on a desert island, untainted by community religious ideas, and had invented my own spiritual religion without any interference.

Great thoughts…makes me think. I think I agree with most of what you say, Valoel. I guess it’s impossible to know how or if we would grow spiritually on a desert island (I’m no Tom Hanks…where’s Wilson when you need him?!), nor will I ever know what it would be like in younger years to grow up outside “religion.” So it’s certainly all speculation on my part.

But I think it’s also helpful to step back for a minute and see the development and history of religion as we know it…particularly Christianity. Early on, clearly, religion was a means to control the masses; homogenize the people to follow rules of the leaders. I believe it was done with some man-made commandments that created ways to punish members who didn’t comply with those in charge. Because of the vast difference in education of the common man (no real literacy until a few centuries ago), it was easy to say “God commands this,” with no questioning by the people.

With liberty came education…and questioning. Reformation was the natural result…from simply not accepting the authoritarianism of “the Church” came a new way to view “God.” And spirituality.

Fast forward, I think what we have right here at “StayLDS” is exactly this evolution of spirituality. “We” question the norm. WE each have our own path we are forming that is probably unique of anybody else’s. And that’s okay!

What I think is happening is that as we become comfortable living our spiritual journey in a more independent and unique way, the “church” (religion) itself is evolving to allow such individuality and diversity within its previously rigid confines. And the new religion allows the personal spirituality we are each experiencing today.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Fwiw, I believe passionately in the concept of communal salvation – that they without us and we without them cannot be made perfect (whole, complete, fully developed). I really dislike the idea that our eternal end is purely a personal pursuit. It justifies WAY too much arrogance and condescension and neglect – and even blatant abuse and disregard.

Thanks for this Ray…it made me think differently than I usually do. The first time I read what you wrote here, I thought you were off your rocker! The italicized part seemed to be exactly opposite of my thoughts. I see so much arrogance, etc, IN religion — from prideful, controlling leaders like Constantine, etc…and the abuse that resulted from them (the inquisitions, etc).

But I think (hope) I see the point you are making that we work towards an eternal end by helping each other. “New thought” spirituality would not disagree with you, as it emphasizes a true unity of all mankind…a sort of “we are all children of God” approach. It stresses, as does most eastern traditions, that much of our spiritual growth comes from the silence; from looking within. And when in a higher state of consciousness, we are only desirous of love for all, since we come to this understanding of lack of separateness. So while we can certainly learn from the wisdom and experiences of others, the only way to true enlightenment is when we get in touch with the Spirit within each of our hearts, and this can only be done alone.

[Anonymous]

My husband taught the gospel essentials lesson Sunday and he came across this talk. I thought it would fit in nicely on this thread. It was given by Dallin Oaks Oct 1994 and is called “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall.”

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=38462e4d12fdb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

DOWNFALLS (in oaks words):

–Gospel hobbies

–Misapplication of spiritual gifts (corruption of or used to magnify the ego or prominence of a person)

–A desire to know all

–A desire to be led in all things

–Honors can sometimes turn to our detriment (“loving the wages of righteousness”)

–A desire to sacrifice more than is needful

–Social consciousness not tempered by other values (used to manipulate others into fulfillings ones agenda)

–An intense focus on goals

–Popular teachers and the potential of priestcraft

–Neglect or distortion of familial duties

–Excesses in giving

–Accomplishment and Pride

–Distored faith (losing ones balance)

–In ordinate church service

–All consuming patriotism

–Materialistic self reliance

–Not really following the prophet ( too focused on words of dead prophets causing one to lose faith in continuous revelation)

–Misapplication of love and tolerance

–CONCLUSION: Preventing strengths from becoming our downfall

[Author]

Posts