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This is, AND ALWAYS has been my issue with the tribe. It has just become so Pharisaical oriented to me, so many “should’s and should not’s” that get focuses on that we so often lose and miss the beauty of the gospel. In my case – I can’t even enjoy “church” anymore because of it — it just causes me frustration and pain and sorrow. So many members and leaders believe that that church, the organization, is the “end all” goal of life —- rather than just the vehicle god uses to help folks find a path and become one with the gods.
I know what you mean, cwald. But there are those people who really want the specific, non-ambiguous direction from leaders…they want a king. That’s where all these come from…people ask the leaders, the leaders ask the Lord…and a new rule is made, and people who obey at all costs, with great sacrifice, are propped up as examples. I appreciate the list as a vehicle for thought and discussion, but most of those aren’t really commandments as much as suggestions or opinions from various church leaders. If Spencer W. had said he thinks every young lady should start the day with a bowl of wholesome oatmeal, would that be a commandment? It’s like the earring thing, and the tattoos, and the no TV on sunday, and the family night, Rated R movies, etc, etc. It’s just suggestions of how one might fulfill the real commandments.
I think if you list the actual directly declared commandments, there would not be that many.
Brown wrote:I appreciate the list as a vehicle for thought and discussion, but most of those aren’t really commandments as much as suggestions or opinions from various church leaders. If Spencer W. had said he thinks every young lady should start the day with a bowl of wholesome oatmeal, would that be a commandment?
It’s like the earring thing, and the tattoos, and the no TV on sunday, and the family night, Rated R movies, etc, etc. It’s just suggestions of how one might fulfill the real commandments.I think if you list the actual directly declared commandments, there would not be that many.
Ideally, they are only suggestions, but when Bednar gets up and gives a talk in GC about “following the prophet” and tells the story about the guy who quit dating the gal because she wouldn’t take out her second set of earrings —- and now the church puts that kind concept up on a pedestal —- it is now NO LONGER a suggestion. IT IS A COMMANDMENT.
It’s a commandment because to not do it is equivalent of not “following the prophet. “
cwald wrote:This is, AND ALWAYS has been my issue with the tribe.
It has just become so Pharisaical oriented to me, so many “should’s and should not’s” that get focuses on that we so often lose and miss the beauty of the gospel. In my case – I can’t even enjoy “church” anymore because of it — it just causes me frustration and pain and sorrow. So many members and leaders believe that that church, the organization, is the “end all” goal of life —- rather than just the vehicle god uses to help folks find a path and become one with the gods.
I do think there’s a whole range of issues here though Cwald.
At one end we have, “thou shalt not kill”, and at the other “don’t get two sets of earrings”. I don’t think these are equal at all.
And I don’t recommend anyone takes up drugs, or even smoking. But I don’t think these are on the level of beards or video games (unless the video games take over your life, which does happen.)
In fairness… looking at these two…
Quote:119 Members should not call General Authorities on the phone CHI v1 17.1.29 Suggestion Suppression of Information
.
120 Members should not write letters to General Authorities
I don’t consider these completely suppression of information. GAs are already quite busy, so why should they have to field endless calls from lonely old ladies, and the slightly unhinged… Some folk would want to call them up several times a day. Seen in that regard, it’s not completely sinister.
We have a lot of rules at work – but I will get fired for breaking only a few of them. Those things that will cause me to be fired if not followed are the “commandments” of my job. That’s worth considering, imo – especially since violating something as culturally normative as not smoking and drinking (or not wearing jeans, a t-shirt and sandles to church) won’t get me fired from the LDS Church.
Having said that, I agree completely with the concern over Pharisee-ism in our modern church.
I just choose not to be a Pharisee.Problem solved for me as an individual. It really is that simple – even if simple isn’t always easy. I choose not to judge others as Pharisees. Surely some on the list outrank others on the list. I hear stories of people who heard the prophet speak about earrings…and on the spot reached up and took out earrings, right there and then.
I just think…good for them. But I’m not doing that.
However, I tend to lean towards cwald’s point on this…it is the “propping up” of the obedience to some of these small things that to me is over inflated in the church. It seems to be done to show that exactness in obedience is an honorable thing…when I see obedience should be done with the right attitude and for the right reasons…not just because a prophet said it. So those examples of others don’t inspire me much.
SamBee wrote:
I do think there’s a whole range of issues here though Cwald.At one end we have, “thou shalt not kill”, and at the other “don’t get two sets of earrings”. I don’t think these are equal at all.
Exactly the point — and yet I would dare say that at church we hear more about earrings than we do about murder. Why do you suposse that is the case? I would dare say that we hear more about not drinking tea and wearing white shirts, than we do about murder.
I think we would do well to quit worrying about all the should and should nots, and just start living the gospel. There is at least one prophet who would agree with me, and had the guts to stand up in conference and say so.
Here is a good thought from Mike S on this issue and how it is affecting Gen X/Y Quote:The problem is that conflated into this natural demographic split is the incorporation of these generational opinions into “pseudo-doctrine”. Instead of focusing on the fundamental and important principles of the gospel, we get talks or stories in Church magazines or presented in manuals on shirt color, tattoos, earrings, covering your shoulders, etc. presented as the official “pseudo-doctrine” of what it means to be a Mormon on a practical, day-to-day basis. Many of the posts in my “If I Were In Charge” series over on Wheat & Tares talk about specific issues I see directly related to this topic (and thanks to all those who have shown an interest in them).
I think that for the reasons you listed above, Gen X and Gen Y don’t accept these as “doctrine” like the generations above them. And ultimately, because the leadership keeps hammering on these things, young people are voting with their feet. Perhaps they are throwing the baby out with the bath water, but it’s a characteristic of the generation. And instead of recognizing this and focusing on the essential parts of the gospel, the leadership hammers them harder and “raises the bar”.
I think we hear more about earrings than murder for one reason – and only one reason: Earrings is an “issue” that applies to pretty much everyone; murder isn’t. Everyone can choose to wear earrings (and how many), while almost no active members are going to choose to murder someone.
I’m not defending a Pharisaical approach to earrings, I don’t think multiple earrings on women or earrings on men should be an “issue” at all, and I don’t believe earrings have anything whatsoever to do with righteousness – but I certainly understand the tendency to make an issue out of something that can be made to apply to everyone and ignoring something that really isn’t relevant to pretty much everyone.
Old-Timer wrote:I think we hear more about earrings than murder for one reason – and only one reason:
Earrings is an “issue” that applies to pretty much everyone; murder isn’t. Everyone can choose to wear earrings (and how many), while almost no active members are going to choose to murder someone.
I’m not defending a Pharisaical approach to earrings, I don’t think multiple earrings on women or earrings on men should be an “issue” at all, and I don’t believe earrings have anything whatsoever to do with righteousness – but I certainly understand the tendency to make an issue out of something that can be made to apply to everyone and ignoring something that really isn’t relevant to pretty much everyone.
Okay, good point. How about we use a more pertinent example like KINDNESS. We would do well to take out every statement from all the talks and lessons and manuals dealing with earrings and tea, and replace it with simple kindness.
I agree with that, cwald – completely. 2 words: Mormon Pharisees
I have always thought the rules compound for two reasons: 1. Constant strive for perfection. We have taught to not commit murder…check. What next? Kindness and service through fast offerings and tithing…check. Modesty in dress and speech…check. What’s next? More modesty by not wearing jewelry as warned in the scriptures leads to pride. These things over time build up as we keep striving for perfection and look for more to do. Each prophet, each leader wants to put their stamp on it.
2. Conservatism. Keep the stage coach as far away from the edge of the cliff as you can. If we are discussing and dealing with earrings and white shirts….that is better than discussing and dealing with abortion. Knowing that people are never perfect, the line needs to be drawn with enough buffer from serious sins.
All that means intentions are good, and I think challenging old rules and out dated traditions is appropriate.
Just wanted to let you know, I finished the list today. It’s 613 line items. I had to resort it for the final publish so all the line item #s are changed but it’s done now. It’s official. Mormons have just as many rules as the Pharisees.
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