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Snark and sarcasm won’t get you anywhere here. Nobody here is an “all is well in Zion” robot. Addressing that perception is one of our central purposes. Lose the sarcasm, please – or stop commenting altogether.
afterallwecando wrote:The entire list @
http://afterallwecando.com should be rejectedConclusion:
If you want to live by the law you will be cursed by the law. Why the church keeps piling on more and more rules is beyond me. No tattoos, no piercings, the list goes on and everyone is on the edge of their seat at GC waiting to hear what new rule to obey. Forget the law live by faith!
I agree that people can end up focusing too much on the rules — not seeing the forest for the trees. I also believe it stunts their full appreciation of life and the atonement when that happens. But I also can’t agree with this other extreme above either.
We invent rules in an attempt to understand morality, perhaps even to understand God. I don’t think Jesus was against any and all rules. In fact, it seems like his rules were stricter and harder than the pharisee in a lot of ways. Where the pharisee could rest and be contented by checking items off their list, Jesus pushed farther into the deeper meanings. Having only two rules: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself sounds like a simplification strictly from a language perspective, but it actually encompasses an invitation to a never ending quest to discover how deep that spiritual well goes.
Does any of this ultimately effect “salvation” or God’s judgment? *shrug* Who really knows… I tend to doubt that God cares as much about the details of the rules as we seem to. But I can’t escape the feeling that being a horrible human being is anything more than being a horrible human being. At some point, I have to decide that I am not going to murder my neighbor when I want his stuff, or he simply pisses me off. That sounds like a “rule” to me. And I can’t imagine any God that wants to hang out with human beings and treat them like peers (or at least beloved pets) if all they want to do is bash in each others’ skulls at the least insult, injury or craving.
“The Law” may not decide our eternal fate. We’ll have to find out. But I am pretty sure it has a strong influence on the time we spend here stuck with each other on this rock as it zooms around the solar system. Religion and morality have a pretty blurry boundary between them IMO.
@Ray, @Brian, My apologies for coming across as sarcastic. That was not my intent. I thought that we had come to some accord. I see that to some extent we have but you guys are still kind of holding onto a portion of the law. That’s fine and we can disagree on that point.
It is a rather scary paradigm to throw out the law as I have done. You might be worried that free of the law I am now engaged in all manner of depravity. I assure you that it’s quite the opposite. Now that I’m free of the law, I have been more inclined to do God’s will because of my change of heart. I now pick and choose things to do off the list when and as I am able and desirous to do so. But I also recognize that doing them or not doing them makes no difference in the end.
However, I’ve seen others around me that have thrown out the law but without Christ in their hearts they have begun to reap all manner of iniquity and that is not good. So I think the law serves a good purpose to help guide those who haven’t had that change of heart yet. It also serves to break us because you can’t live under it for too long before losing hope. It’s really impossible to do everything.
I’m not sharing this as an issue for debate and I don’t expect to have you agree with me or the decisions I’ve made. It’s just how I view things now.
Anyway, Thanks for listening…
I think you’ll find that all of here are HUGE believers in consciously doing “all WE (as individuals) can do” – so I don’t think there is any disagreement here about the general approach you just described – as long as you aren’t advocating ignoring everything, not caring at all about what we do and, essentially, thumbing our noses at the faith community of which we are a part. We’re all about living according to the dictates of our own consciences, but we aren’t at all about condemning and ridiculing those who live differently according to the dictates of their own consciences.
I had skimmed the list previously, but I just went and took some time to really look at it. Um, it is being extremely charitable to call it a stretch. Seriously, there are at least six “different” things on the list that all say the exact same thing: “respect and care for the temple garment”. Consecration, as a covenant, is dissected into multiple things on the list. There are dozens of OT laws that are not articulated anywhere else. Every single thing that is a “suggestion” is listed, regardless of its actual “enforcement” by the Church – including every single thing in the Church Handbook of Instructions directed toward administration of the organization. One is, “Don’t ask a general authority (who is not related to you, is the unstated assumption) to perform a marriage.” Stuff like that is a sign of being Pharisaical?! I could go on and on and on, but I honestly am . . . baffled . . . at the list itself and the conclusion it draws.
As I said, I think everyone here agrees that there are too many laws, rules, regulations, etc. in our current culture – and that many of them came about just because too many members ask too many questions. Nobody here is an “all is well in Zion” member. I really do appreciate the effort it took to compile the list. However, when it takes the inclusion of many of the things on the list to reach the ultimate objective, I think it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy – more than a little bit Pharisaical in its view of Mormon Pharisee-ism, if you will.
afterallwecando wrote:It is a rather scary paradigm to throw out the law as I have done. You might be worried that free of the law I am now engaged in all manner of depravity. I assure you that it’s quite the opposite. Now that I’m free of the law, I have been more inclined to do God’s will because of my change of heart. I now pick and choose things to do off the list when and as I am able and desirous to do so. But I also recognize that doing them or not doing them makes no difference in the end.
I’m in full agreement with the importance of that spiritual transformation. I don’t know you well, but you came across to me as a thoughtful and sincere follower of Christ, so I wouldn’t assume you are throwing out “The Law” to engage in depravity. I know what you mean. It seems that is too often the first volley fired at people as they start to voice independence — they must be leaving because they want to be sinful. I don’t buy that one bit, and it doesn’t jive with my experience with people either.
I think that when our hearts have been transformed, we live [all/none/part] of the rules out of love for God and love for ourselves and others. We radiate the love of Christ and express charity and compassion, and a divine connection with life. I find this approach much more in line with how I can understand being “led by the Spirit.” Like you said, we “pick and choose” and prioritize the efforts of our life much differently after this transformation caused by grace/mercy.
afterallwecando wrote:However, I’ve seen others around me that have thrown out the law but without Christ in their hearts they have begun to reap all manner of iniquity and that is not good. So I think the law serves a good purpose to help guide those who haven’t had that change of heart yet. It also serves to break us because you can’t live under it for too long before losing hope. It’s really impossible to do everything.
Great observation! Yeah, there really seems to be a difference between people who throw out the rule book while being filled with the Love of God, and those who simply throw out the rule book with no compass to guide them at all. I have also thought about how a heavy burden of law seems to eventually eject many of those who are the most passionate about doing right by God.
Quote:I don’t know you well, but you came across to me as a thoughtful and sincere follower of Christ, so I wouldn’t assume you are throwing out “The Law” to engage in depravity.
Fwiw, I agree with that assessment completely. From what you’ve written here, the thought that you are “depraved” in any way never crossed my mind.
Ray, nice to see you get that fire lit under your pants again. I haven’t seen you this worked up since, well, since I was a regular here, talking WoW stuff. 🙂 Pharisaical practices and culture is the biggest nail in my Mormon membership activity coffin. This is my issue.
Jwald and I looked at the list. To be fair to the church, about 200 of the items could immediately be scraped, like all the all the old testament references. We don’t believe in all those things. That part I don’t think is fair to the church leaders.
Then I think one could combine about 100 more items that seem to be repeats and duplicates.
As far as the “suggestions” from the CHI go. Some are not fair – but most I think are. Yeah, they are listed as suggestions, but I think in the average member paradigm, they would be considered commandments because they come from the prophets. So I’m going to give afterallwecando the benefit of the doubt on those.
I would estimate that 300 items from the list would be considered “commandments” in most devout LDS homes. Now of course, we will argue about what a commandment is. Some here will say that one pair of earrings is just counsel and not a commandment. I say phooey on that. If you can’t wear it to youth conference than it’s a commandment. Devout members consider it a commandment, and will look down on those who don’t follow it, and it is cited and talked about and referenced repeated in the church manuals. IMO — that means it is a commandment.
And fwiw, I think afterallwecando does have a valid point about members watching conference in anticipation of getting more and more commandments to follow. I think that happens. I’ve seen it happen in my family and branch. Personally, I do the same thing. I watch conference every six months just waiting to hear the prophets come out, and very plainly give all us members just ONE MORE COMMANDMENT, and that commandment would be ….. “Stop focusing on all the shoulds’ and should nots’, and start living and enjoying the beauty of the gospel.
Oh wait, one of our prophets did say that in conference. The people need to start listening to the prophets.
Hope that is not too snarky or sarcastic.
😈 So there you go. My opinion today.
Oh, one more thing. Perhaps those of you who read the list caught this too. There is one commandment on there that made me fall out of my chair. That was the “no sexual choking.” I was like, “what the hell?” I even looked up the reference and read the letter the talk where it was addressed, and yes, the prophet made it clear that it is a commandment that we don’t “choke.”
HOWEVER, afterallwecando, you need to change the title from “sexual choking” to “recreational choking” because it has nothing to do with sex at all in most cases. This is a practice that I observed and had to deal with at school where kids would choke each other out for the head rush that it caused right before they passed out. Weird weird way to get a high. But yeah, I couldn’t believe it was one of the main points of a talk given by Pres. Gordon Hinkley.
afterallwecando wrote:No tattoos, no piercings, the list goes on and everyone is on the edge of their seat at GC waiting to hear what new rule to obey.
Quote:And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time—they that are faithful and diligent before me.
D&C 59:4Given a certain perspective, this makes perfect sense.
Ifthere are specific rules that will need to be followed in the CK andGod is preparing us through the church to get there andGod will only reveal to us the next rule as we demonstrate that we have mastered the previously revealed rules thenthis makes perfect sense! This is not my present interpretation, but it seems to be a scripturally defensible position.
Yeah, cwald, one “commandment” that might take care of many, many of the examples is: Quote:Don’t do any of those stupid things you are tempted to do. I don’t want to have to start listing them, so, seriously, don’t do them!!
cwald wrote:Oh, one more thing.
Perhaps those of you who read the list caught this too. There is one commandment on there that made me fall out of my chair. That was the “no sexual choking.” I was like, “what the hell?” I even looked up the reference and read the letter the talk where it was addressed, and yes, the prophet made it clear that it is a commandment that we don’t “choke.”
HOWEVER, afterallwecando, you need to change the title from “sexual choking” to “recreational choking” because it has nothing to do with sex at all in most cases. This is a practice that I observed and had to deal with at school where kids would choke each other out for the head rush that it caused right before they passed out. Weird weird way to get a high. But yeah, I couldn’t believe it was one of the main points of a talk given by Pres. Gordon Hinkley.
I know it sounds stupid, but that is probably decent advice concerning sex. Several well known people have died from that such as Michael Hutchence.
No sexual thrill is worth dying for IMHO.
As regards other types of choking, probably very risky. A game can turn into death quite easily. Yeah, we had (non-sexual) choking at school, it took us a bit too close to the edge, IMHO.
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