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OK. Here’s my confusion. In Doctrine & Covenants, Section 19, Verses 16-17 mention Christ telling Joseph Smith that those that don’t repent will suffer like He suffered, bleeding from every pore. Before my faith reconstruction, I fully believed that. Now I’m not so sure. I wonder if it’s different than what the church taught us it meant or if Joseph misunderstood what Christ told him. What do all of you here think about that scripture? I think, when reading the section in full, that this will happen. Quote:
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
(Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 19)Given The Lord has just effectively said “I use hyperbole” in v7 then I think what comes next may be read in that context.
We should also bear in mind that we are taught that Jesus suffered for every person that ever lived. If the unrepentant are to suffer, then it would be for their own sins, not for everyone’s.
I’m not trying to downplay the warning here. I believe that at some point in life or the eternities people will realise and feel the impact and implications of their bad choices. I have had such experiences at times, and that was just within the limits of what I was aware of. So yes, when we see the greater scope of eternity, I think there will be a time of suffering anguish for the impact and consequences of those negative choices. But I don’t think this scripture is teaching that the unrepentant will have to go through some sort of unreasonable and disproportionate punishment of pain.
I agree with mackay11 – with the caveat about which we talk a lot here: Literal interpretations cause all kinds of issues that need not exist if many things are read figuratively. For example, the word “as” is used in the passage. It’s the same as saying that Outer Darkness is “like” a lake of fire and brimstone. We interpret that in the LDS Church as saying the pain will be intense, not that we actually will roast in a fiery lake forever. Thus, Jesus suffered greatly; similarly, the unrepentant will suffer greatly. I don’t think we need to read any more into it than that.
To use a specific story to illustrate this point, Alma said that he experienced the pains of a damned soul – but there is NO indication in the record that it was anything more than extreme mental anguish. There certainly is no record of any bleeding involved.
Finally, the Biblical story of Jesus’ suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane in Luke 22:44 describes his suffering in the following manner:
Quote:And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was
as it weregreat drops of blood falling down to the ground. The most straightforward, simple reading of that verse is that he sweat so much that the sweat poured out of him “as if” he was bleeding. I’ve experienced that amount of sweat in a spa and working outside in the intense heat of lower Alabama in the summer, although I’ve never experienced it because of tremendous mental or physical anguish. Terrible fevers also can cause something that would be described exactly as the verse above.
I know the D&C verse is worded more literally, but, as mackay11 says, if it really was caused by unfathomable pain because it was universal, that doesn’t need to transfer literally to each individual. Again, I point to the story of Alma – the best story of which I’m aware to understand what the “pains of a damned soul” would be like for an individual.
I’ve always assumed the ‘bleeding from every pore’ thing was an exaggeration or a metaphor or a mistranslation or something. If Jesus bled from every pore in Gethsemane, apart from the obvious danger of exsanguination (He was still mortal at that point), Jesus would have looked like a zombie. And the biblical record doesn’t mention anything about his appearance being grotesque at that point. And the soldiers that came to arrest him would have run away in fear. Just my 0.02
I could agree with all the comments. Where is that mentions the footnotes and the Joseph Smith Translation in the Bible aren’t doctrine? Who said that? I have chosen to disregard scripture that talks in threats. It is such a poor way to motivate. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Never mind about the question on my first reply. I found the answer in Fairmormon. Curtis wrote:The most straightforward, simple reading of that verse is that he sweat so much that the sweat poured out of him “as if” he was bleeding. I’ve experienced that amount of sweat in a spa and working outside in the intense heat of lower Alabama in the summer, although I’ve never experienced it because of tremendous mental or physical anguish. Terrible fevers also can cause something that would be described exactly as the verse above.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who interprets Luke this way. Of course I always had the conflict with the D&C verse. Frankly I still haven’t sorted it out in my mind, but I do give more credence to the Bible than to the D&C and I tend not to take single verses in any book of scripture at face value. However, in the bigger picture the scriptures, and in particular the Bible, have many references to suffering by the unrepentant leading me to believe there must be some payment made by those who do not repent. I also believe repentance does not necessarily have to be a long and arduous affair (depending on the sins, of course). I believe a broken heart and a contrite spirit go a long way in repentance, and I’m pretty sure that some of us here have had such an experience.
Ilovechrist77 wrote:Never mind about the question on my first reply. I found the answer in Fairmormon.
Care to share?
Ilovechrist77 wrote:Never mind about the question on my first reply. I found the answer in Fairmormon.
Is it an LDS source? Could u add it here or on the quote thread?
Edit: oops, didn’t see DJ’s request for the same.
Yes. Here it is: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_scripture_study_aides I take the verse at its word. I think Christ was trying to warn the unrepentant about the suffering they will have to endure if they do not change. I think the verse means what it says and says what it means. I further believe that there will, naturally, be degrees of suffering, since not everyone will have sinned to the same nature and amount. Some may suffer a little, while others will suffer a lot. The amount of suffering will be on a case-by-case basis. I am not sure if the God of the Universe will require suffering to meet His justice or make things fair to all laborers of the vineyard. I like to think the unrepentant will not have changed their hearts, making them miss out on the joy that comes by living righteously. And by missing out, there will be a suffering from what could have been. Symbolically, that suffering would be compared to the pain of pressure on the body enough to make it bleed out pores of skin.
Whichever interpretation works best for you, literal or symbolic, the message is similar….repenting and becoming more Christ-like is the end goal. I can respect mikegriffith’s view on it, and think it leads to the same type of lesson for us in this life.
Heber13 wrote:I am not sure if the God of the Universe will require suffering to meet His justice or make things fair to all laborers of the vineyard.
I like to think the unrepentant will not have changed their hearts, making them miss out on the joy that comes by living righteously. And by missing out, there will be a suffering from what could have been. Symbolically, that suffering would be compared to the pain of pressure on the body enough to make it bleed out pores of skin.
Whichever interpretation works best for you, literal or symbolic, the message is similar….repenting and becoming more Christ-like is the end goal. I can respect mikegriffith’s view on it, and think it leads to the same type of lesson for us in this life.
In the verse under discussion, the Lord says that those who do not repent will have to suffer as he suffered. I just don’t see much wiggle room there. And I don’t think it’s that God will “require” suffering to satisfy the demands of justice but that the eternal laws of justice and agency will prohibit him from exempting the unrepentant person from suffering.
I agree, mikegriffith. Consequences will follow choices. Wiggle room is always there when interpreting scripture.
There is a good chance how you interpret it today will be different from how you understood it 20years ago, and different from 20years from now. That’s the beauty of scripture as it speaks to our spirits as needed.
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