The value of Sunday meetings

[Anonymous]

Mom3 suggested more responses so I thought I might just throw out a post. I don’t check in here very often because I don’t really “fit” the group. In my heart I have left the LDS church, although my body sits through SS class most Sundays. We have a good teacher, and I am able to learn something new from each lesson. My husband and I are able to discuss the lesson and come to a reasonable agreement on most topics.

In September I attended RS. One lesson was on temples. The temple has always been a sticky spot for me, but I tried to listen with an open mind, and thought maybe I might learn something. The teacher was a nice young woman, who is new to our ward, and she did a very nice job. Towards the end of the lesson, a statement was read. It referred to people who attend church, pay their tithing, live like they should and yet never attend the temple. I don’t know who they were quoting but the statement was something right out of the lesson book.

So the teacher asks why would a person go to church, pay tithing but not enjoy the blessings of the temple. Now, in my opinion, asking this question is asking the sisters to speculate and judge other people’s motivations. But I actually live in a pretty cool ward and the answers were gracious. The most discussed idea was that people don’t feel themselves worthy – as opposed to saying that people are not actually worthy. Big difference, I think. And then all agreed that no one is perfect, and you don’t need to be to attend the temple. The other big reasons given were how busy people are, and how hard it is to attend when you have little children that need to be taken care of.

I so wanted to raise my hand and say that they were talking about me. Even when I was very active, I rarely went to the temple. I haven’t gone to the temple in 14 years, and I have only been outwardly disaffected for about 4 years. But I stayed quiet because I don’t want to embarrass my husband or daughter.

But here is my question: Isn’t there any value in attending church on Sunday, holding a calling, paying tithing, doing service, etc. if you aren’t going to go to the temple? Is it really an all or nothing proposition? Is there no value in Sunday meetings and service to the living, if you have no belief in the temple?

[Anonymous]

Outofstep, yes there is value. Only God knows our hearts, and I believe He is far more loving and merciful than many in the church believe.

My dear TBM wife just recently had a epiphany which I have yet to share here. She even bore testimony about it on Sunday, and it is related to Pres. Uchtdorf’s Saturday talk although she says she realized it before then, he just confirmed it for her. Members misunderstand the idea of any blessing we receive being predicated on keeping an individual commandment. That is, there is really no if/then relationship between specific commandments and specific blessings – and that’s why blessings are more like rain than we often think. There is hope for her after all.

[Anonymous]

I think so, Outofstep.

The Church isn’t a church of the temple. There is more to church than the temple.

If I were sitting in that lesson, I would have stayed quiet also. And just reminded myself that the responses people gave would be responses from their point of view. To some people…they can’t imagine anything else other than how amazing the temple is to them and what that symbolizes in their lives, and they would reinforce it with quotes from leaders and teachings from manuals that point to the temple.

I would just remind myself that it is good for me to hear how others perceive it, and what that can teach me as they share their perspective. It just wouldn’t be mine.

attending church on Sunday, holding a calling, paying tithing, doing service…all have their value in helping an individual become more like God. With or without the temple, those things can have value. And the temple can have value too. Or not.

The danger can be when a person thinks the opposite, and believes it is all or nothing. Because then, if the “shelf” breaks and they don’t see value in any of it…they can tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are other ways to be Mormon, and cling to good principles, and allow others to believe what they believe, while holding on to things that have value for yourself, and letting go of the rest.

[Anonymous]

I think there is tremendous value in attending and participating in church without adding the temple to it. One of my hugest pet peeves about our present church growth is the new idea that your worth is fulfilled in the temple.

When I was a kid – 40+ years ago, there were only 15 temples “to dot the earth”. The world was separated by the Iron Curtain of communism and we weren’t really global. I was a kid in 1970 and there was no Provo temple in 1970. It didn’t open till 1972. Now for some people that is ancient times, but for me, it’s just yesterday. If we only had 15 temples what was the highest religious thing we could do? Attend church and build the kingdom. Building the kingdom was not all missionary work either, much of it was setting up a meeting place for like minded people to worship, serve, connect and interact. To be honest church was a lot more fun then.

I don’t think the mission should have changed. I know I am not alone in my longing for the good old days. One of my least favorite Stake Presidents would often pulpit pound his wards with the idea that the Sacrament is the quintessential covenant experience. I agree with him. He stated that it is available to everyone, we encourage little kids not yet baptized to participate, we pass it to all the attendee’s, and if someone can’t or chooses not to partake of the emblems – it still doesn’t mean that the sacred 10 to 15 minutes is in vain. The prayer is offered for all, the time of private person to God reflection is offered for all, the hymns are for all.

Now as to the other 2 hours, I guess that is up to us how valuable they are, but for my heart – Sacrament meeting trumps the temple.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

The danger can be when a person thinks the opposite, and believes it is all or nothing. Because then, if the “shelf” breaks and they don’t see value in any of it…they can tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are other ways to be Mormon, and cling to good principles, and allow others to believe what they believe, while holding on to things that have value for yourself, and letting go of the rest.

Very much this. :thumbup:

All too often the crisis of faith that leads to inactivity and sometimes to name removal is because people don’t understand it’s not all or nothing.

[Anonymous]

I go to church to help and serve others. It absolutely is worth it to me, even though I frequently am not fed or enlightened by a talk or lesson.

The church meetings and the temple are VERY different things. People who don’t have temples as part of their theology still attend and value church – and gain from doing so.

[Anonymous]

One man’s baby is another man’s bath water and vice versa. What if the things that are typically used to measure activity level are the very things that people have found little value in? For example, someone stops attending PH/RS (or the entire 3 hour block for that matter) because they find little value in it. They might not have tossed out their baby, they might have just drained their tub of the dirty water.

Of course the person that doesn’t attend doesn’t take advantage of an opportunity to find the good in the lessons, they might not be exposed to opportunities to serve, they weren’t present. Still, there are some cases where attending may bear no fruit.

I like the baby/bathwater idiom. I don’t want to dump the baby out because I didn’t go to the effort of draining the tub to see what was left behind. I also don’t want to piece together a Frankenstein baby out of lumps of swill because I looked at the dirty water for too long. Turns out DW took the baby out of the bath 3 hours ago and I was insistent that there was a baby in there somewhere. :angel:

Of course the conflict comes when a person that can separate the good from the bad finds themselves in an environment that insists on an all or nothing approach.

Back on topic, there’s a lot more to church than temples. Even in the most orthodox mindset redeeming the dead is only one fourth of the fourfold mission of the church.

Sunday meetings offer opportunities to inspire and be inspired. We can serve and be served without temples. Going back to mom3’s time of 15 temples, there were many saints then (and now) that had no access to temples but living the gospel still had a great effect in their lives. There are plenty of people that belong to other religions that will never set foot in a temple that live just as fulfilling a life as the most temple attending member of the church.

[Anonymous]

Good thoughts Nibbler.

I often think of church meetings about the tribe and being part of the group to help build something helpful to our families.

The temple is a more personal form of worship, not a group effort. Yes there are group activities, and yes one could see it being service for those beyond the grave and it be for others that way, but ultimately, the temples can run by individuals going or not going, grouped as ward temple night or individual attendance. Workers and proxies are interchangeable to be involved in sessions, as they allow for personal connection with the divine through symbolic rituals.

I just think they are different, and therefore…each have value in its own respective sphere. Like a Venn diagram, these things can overlap, where you would hope to see value in the center by all these things, but if not, you can overlap some with others and exclude some and still find value.

One could go to the mountains and find peace and connect to divinity, or go to the temple and find peace and divinity. One could go to the temple and not connect with God or one could sit on the couch and watch football and not connect with God. Clearly, the thing the church is looking for is the person is seeking God. With or without temples, that is the Goal.

Everything in the religion is to help us learn things. It isn’t all or nothing, in my experience.

[Anonymous]

Hi Outofstep,

Sounds like the nice young woman teaching Relief Society was describing me 😮 Even when I was in the bishopric, I was never a big temple attender – for some reason, that experience much of the time for me is not tremendously uplifting. I tend to go for stake temple day and on special occasions. To be honest, I was a bit in “awe” of it when I went before my mission 30+ years ago.

Going back to your question though, yes, I find a lot more value in holding my calling and serving, attending on Sundays (even if I cringe at some of the things that are said), having an opportunity to take the sacrament, and helping others. To me, being part of the tribe is a big thing and the concept of the ward family is a powerful concept.

It is unfortunate that we are often taught that “it’s all or nothing” – it definitely is not in my book. And my most meaningful uplifting spiritual experiences (outside of being married, of course) have happened outside the temple. The primarily involve doing and seeing others do Christlike activities.

[Anonymous]

Good thread –

Couple things I thought about while reading through:

A majority (I don’t want to assume here) on this site would probably agree with the idea that the Gospel and Church are separate. I see the Church as a place to help us remember the Gospel, and thus I have come to view the Church from the view of being a customer, not an employee (which is how I felt before).

As a customer I want an experience that helps me grow, that can help me focus outward instead of inward, that can help me serve others, and provide a space and community that feels safe and where I can give and feel love. Because that is the type of experience I desire as a customer I am ok with being asked to do things I might not want to do, serve those I might not want to serve, and be stretched beyond where I want. The temple is not an important part of what I desire from my experience right now (mostly due to having 3 kids under six. I am not interested in using my time and money to get to the temple. I would prefer to deploy those resources elsewhere).

And so even though some Sundays we get home from Church and think, “hmmm…. not sure what we got out of that today”, I am ok with creating routines for my kids that they can expect, about trying to be there so that perhaps I can make a comment or see someone that might need a smile or a helping hand.

Something else along these lines – there was a great BCC post last week about 1:00 p.m. church. That will be our church time next year. Being that my calling takes me away half the month and that we have 3 kids under six my wife is thinking she will just go to the 9:00 meeting (which is the ward we used to live in) because she has no interest in dragging toddlers to church without me who should be napping. It’s either attend another ward, not go, or be fairly miserable at church. Perhaps the Bishops might not like it, but I don’t think my wife cares, she is more concerned about having a good experience than what the official decree might be.

-SBRed

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Outofstep, yes there is value. Only God knows our hearts, and I believe He is far more loving and merciful than many in the church believe.

My dear TBM wife just recently had a epiphany which I have yet to share here. She even bore testimony about it on Sunday, and it is related to Pres. Uchtdorf’s Saturday talk although she says she realized it before then, he just confirmed it for her. Members misunderstand the idea of any blessing we receive being predicated on keeping an individual commandment. That is, there is really no if/then relationship between specific commandments and specific blessings – and that’s why blessings are more like rain than we often think. There is hope for her after all.

Couldn’t agree more. This whole idea of “getting blessings” by keeping commandments has done more to embitter and alienate people who felt entitled when hard times come. Commercializing trying to live a righteous life totally skews what we should be doing, the right thing for no other reason that’s it’s the right thing to do.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the great responses. I figured this was the right group. I do feel there is value in all the non-temple activities of the church, and that was what I needed to hear. There is a good chance that someone else in that class feels the same way that I do, but doesn’t say anything out of respect for those around us. Online forums give us a chance to express thoughts that aren’t expressed in church. Sometimes I think I should speak up, in a respectful way, to help support other members that might feel outside the norm. But I really dislike when classes become contentious. I make a choice to be there and I don’t want to cause doubt in others.

I do feel there has been an increased emphasis on temple service since the increase in temple building. DH tells me that I am wrong, that I am just more sensitive to the topic. That could be true. My mother and I are the only members in my family. We joined in 1972 (yes mom3, I remember 1972) on the East Coast. The Washington DC temple wasn’t dedicated until 1974. So having no endowed relatives, and a temple 2 hours away, it wasn’t prevalent in my young personal life. My husband’s family is LDS from BY’s time, some even descend from him. Temple attendance is huge in their lives.

Before we had children we went to the temple once a week. I get why people love the temple and I am happy for them. I am also very grateful that my current ward is open, understanding. I am able to take home a gospel message from each class I attend.

I do feel that most of what is good about me is due to being raised in the Church. Any of what is bad in me is solely due to me. I will always be grateful to the members the Ward of my youth for making me who I am.

[Anonymous]

Outofstep wrote:

There is a good chance that someone else in that class feels the same way that I do, but doesn’t say anything out of respect for those around us.

I totally agree!

Quote:

But I really dislike when classes become contentious. I make a choice to be there and I don’t want to cause doubt in others.

I think that approach will serve you well, and the other people who cause contention…well, they will see the fruits of that, as will the ward leaders and others.

There is no “right” or “wrong” on this topic…just our differing perceptions and opinions. Allow others that courtesy, even if you disagree. Sounds like you are doing that. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Outofstep wrote:

Is there any value in attending church on Sunday, holding a calling, paying tithing, doing service, etc. if you aren’t going to go to the temple? Is it really an all or nothing proposition?

No, it isn’t an all or nothing proposition. You can still go for other benefits other than the temple

a) To frustrate your Ward leaders (I am just kidding, don’t take that seriously — I used to be really frustrated with people who were present, and represented free labor, but who wouldn’t contribute — speaking rather crudely about my feelings when I was a leader)

b) To show support for family members.

c) For the ride to church and back — doing something as a family. It is good talking time I found, since no one can go anywhere — they are strapped into the car.

d) For any relationships you establish that you enjoy.

e) To be part of a community and give service in non-doctrinal ways.

I also find its a good time to read and have solitude. I do some of my best thinking on issues unrelated to the gospel during the meeting where I can sit without email, anyone disturbing me, etcetera.

Quote:

Is there value in Sunday meetings and service to the living, if you have no belief in the temple?

There are short-term benefits of simply feeling good about helping other people. In some cases, you might develop talents in non-doctrinal areas like planning social events, or clerical/financial work (if you like that). Also, the church can be a good place to grow in character through service. In any month, there is usually some topic about developing a Christlike character, beyond being a good Mormon. Those are raisins in the cake for even the non-believer.

[Anonymous]

I remember as a Youth attending the dedication of the Oakland Temple. Before that, it was a big deal for youth and adults to do a bus trip to the Los Angeles Temple, 6 or 7 hours away. I have found it important for myself to notice when I feel pushed and start to resent it. I agree that Temple attendance does not need to be one’s favorite thing!

I value keeping my recommend current and going every few months. I could go more often however I enjoy other kinds of service more When I do go I get more out of doing Iniiatories and Sealings, where I’m involved with more individuals and it seems more real. I think it can be very discouraging to do something like Temple service or a missionary effort and then feel like I’m supposed to do so much more, and there is no pleasing God or anyone. I lived a long guilt trip as a missionary who was never baptizing “enough” and had to learn how to not go crazy under pressures that were not really inspired. It’s a challenge to run my life through personal prayer, yet I think it’s the only long-term solution. I’m new here an really appreciate hearing people be real. One of my biggest challenges in Church has been to NOT be able to acknowledge and affirm my own perceptions–like when our mission president and general authority seemed to be contradicting themselves!!! You only have so much time and energy!!

[Author]

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