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In the pre-mortal life what kind of war was it? If we came to earth to gain a body then it can’t have been a physical war with physical consequences. Did we even have emotions? Did we know happiness or sadness? There were no temptations or consequences yet so how did we know right from wrong (to follow Christ plan or Lucifer)? Apparently we had the ability to make choices so a very important question is what was free agency then? I have been under the wrong impression that we gained free agency when we came to earth. I asked about free agency in the pre-mortal life in HP meeting Sunday but I should have known better.
Sorry if this is the wrong forum and if there is already a thread on this feel free to point me to it.
I’d be interested to hear what the high priests said. Sometimes it’s fun to watch them catch themselves in things that really don’t make sense – like if we didn’t have free agency there, how did we choose to come here? And if we didn’t know pain or joy, how did we rejoice? My answer is probably going to disappoint you. I don’t think we have any idea about any of that stuff. We know so little about either the pre- or post-earth lives. Frankly I’m not even sure there was a war in heaven, division into thirds, or any of the rest of that stuff. Hence, I don’t spend much time thinking about it.
I agree with DJ and yet… if it wasn’t an actual event then that frees us to look at it from different angles to see how much we can learn. I like seeing how many different takes there are on the garden of eden story.
We Mormons see Eve’s transgression as a bold step to move the plan forward and accept onerous and sometimes painful responsibilities. That is pretty cool – and that is just one of hundreds of ways to look at it.
DarkJedi wrote:I’d be interested to hear what the high priests said. Sometimes it’s fun to watch them catch themselves in things that really don’t make sense – like if we didn’t have free agency there, how did we choose to come here? And if we didn’t know pain or joy, how did we rejoice?
My answer is probably going to disappoint you. I don’t think we have any idea about any of that stuff. We know so little about either the pre- or post-earth lives. Frankly I’m not even sure there was a war in heaven, division into thirds, or any of the rest of that stuff. Hence, I don’t spend much time thinking about it.
Not a disappointing answer at all. “We just don’t know…” IS an answer and a better one than making something up like “…we had to have free agency because we made a choice to come…”. In all quorums and SS classes everybody has answers. There are no questions, except mine, and they often get mistaken for contention so usually I sit tight mouthed. Further, if we had free agency it could not have been the same definition of free agency we have now because there was no veil, no temptation, no test. Same with war, could not be the same then as now. I could be wrong but if so something more needs to be explained. Maybe I just need to spend a month doing some research on my own so I could help others understand. Not that anyone would have the question.
Kipper wrote:Not a disappointing answer at all. “We just don’t know…” IS an answer and a better one than making something up like “…we had to have free agency because we made a choice to come…”. In all quorums and SS classes everybody has answers. There are no questions, except mine, and they often get mistaken for contention so usually I sit tight mouthed. Further, if we had free agency it could not have been the same definition of free agency we have now because there was no veil, no temptation, no test. Same with war, could not be the same then as now. I could be wrong but if so something more needs to be explained. Maybe I just need to spend a month doing some research on my own so I could help others understand. Not that anyone would have the question.
Same problem with differing perspectives on things – some people are convinced that there is just one correct/orthodox/authoratitive way to view it.
The traditional perspective is that we did have agency but the consequences of choosing the wrong were pretty dire. The sons of perdition presumably could not be forgiven since they made their poor choice in the presence of God. Our docrine is that the worst mass murderers in history will be saved (IOW ressurrected and put into a kingdom of glory) but not the sons of perdition.
That is partly why I preffer to think of it as allegorical.
Roy wrote:
Same problem with differing perspectives on things – some people are convinced that there is just one correct/orthodox/authoratitive way to view it.The traditional perspective is that we did have agency but the consequences of choosing the wrong were pretty dire. The sons of perdition presumably could not be forgiven since they made their poor choice in the presence of God. Our docrine is that the worst mass murderers in history will be saved (IOW ressurrected and put into a kingdom of glory) but not the sons of perdition.
That is partly why I preffer to think of it as allegorical.
This is why I prefer message board banter or to at least supplement my research with it. Get’s me thinking out of the box which I do anyway but it’s good to hear stuff I don’t come up with.
Ok, I have to ask, why would poor choices be made in the presence of God if the consequences were know? I don’t mean to be stringing this along it’s just a way to get to the root of my misunderstanding.
I see war terminology as mortal expressions and overly applied. I see the War in Heaven as a conflict of views – the first open marketplace of ideas. I see that narrative as symbolic of the need to consider opposing possibilities and choose one, complete with the consequences of that choice.
Old-Timer wrote:I see war terminology as mortal expressions and overly applied.
I see the War in Heaven as a conflict of views – the first open marketplace of ideas. I see that narrative as symbolic of the need to consider opposing possibilities and choose one, complete with the consequences of that choice.
I just heard a podcast call it “the great conflict in Heaven”. I like that.I like the “conflict” as opposed to war terminology. Or maybe “police action” works! 
It is taught that we kept our first estate, allowing us to come to earth for step 2. But we were intelligences, and then given spirits, and did have the premortal choice to follow God’s plan…so we had that war in heaven on the ideas or beliefs or faith. It was a war of ideas and convictions. Some didn’t choose to follow Jesus, and would not come to earth to get a body as we did.
I don’t believe we use the term “Free Agency” in the church so much anymore…we have the gift of agency. It is an eternal principle.
Quote:The right to choose between good and evil and to act for ourselves is called agency.
In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we are happier doing things when we have made our own choices.
Agency was one of the principal issues to arise in the premortal Council in Heaven. It was one of the main causes of the conflict between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. Satan said, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). In saying this, he “rebelled against [God] and sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). His offer was rejected, and he was cast out of heaven with his followers (see D&C 29:36–37).
-Gospel Principles Manual
I have learned a lot about the importance of Agency the past few years. Choosing what to believe and what not to believe has helped me grow, instead of being a “Yes” man in church and just obeying what was taught. Helps me appreciate the church’s value and importance of agency in the plan God has for me.
I can’t stress enough how important agency is to my ability to define my faith and my relationship with God. If God doesn’t try to take away agency, no one else is allowed to take mine either. I will choose what is best for myself. That is in harmony with church teachings.
I am rereading The God Who Weepsin anticipation of hearing The Givens speak in the not-to-distant future. I finished the chapter about coming to earth being an ascent as opposed to a descent last night. While the conflict in heaven is not really discussed in detail or by name, it is interesting to look at from this different perspective – as a choice we made for good. Of course, that goes back to the original question – if we were able to make such a choice, how, then, did we not have agency? Putting on my orthodox hat I’d say that the preexistence and mortal life are separate experiences. The first estate pertains to how we exercised our agency in the preexistence and our second estate pertains to how we exercise our agency now. The doctrines surrounding the creation story touch on gaining agency but I don’t think the doctrines spell out that this life is the first time we have ever had the opportunity to exercise agency. E.g. 1) The experience of being innocent and later gaining agency could have been limited to Adam and Eve only, the rest of us are born with it.
2) Adam and Eve had agency before partaking of the forbidden fruit. Partaking of the fruit was a choice. Was there ever a time when they did not have agency?
3) Maybe we had agency in the preexistence but something to do with the birthing process reboots us, we level set, and grow into the role of exercising agency in this life.
4) Perhaps agency never had a beginning, perhaps we grow from agency to agency. We can decide to be baptized at 8. Decide to drive a car at 16. Decide who to vote for at 18. Decide to start drinking alcohol at 21.
Removing my orthodox hat. We don’t know. If we did know it wouldn’t be a question that has inspired/plagued humanity for millennia.
DarkJedi wrote:I like the “conflict” as opposed to war terminology. Or maybe “police action” works!
Neither term is strictly accurate. I prefer the term “boundry maintenance.”
Recently unearthed anchient texts reveal the original story…
Lucifer started out with a podcast where he interviewed proponents of various viewpoints of the issues raised in the Heavenly Council. Over time Lucifer became less and less impartial in the interviews and became an advocate and firebrand for heavenly reform in and of himself. Lucifer steadily gained followers and pushed for change until it finally came to a tipping point. The authorities sent him a letter informing him that he was to be cast out and from this point forward would be known as Satan, Serpent, or Father of Lies in all official correspondence. This was the origen of the Adversary known as Satan and also the fulfillment of the part in the eternal plan requiring “opposition in all things.”
😈 This left many Satan sympathizers in a grey area. Emboldened by the disciplinary action against Satan, some local authorities moved forward with discipline against sympathizers. In other local areas no official action was taken and sympathizers were permitted to take mortal bodies and advance to earth despite the designation of “less valiant” stamped in their permanent “book of life” records. Though they are born with less privledge and opportunity in this “second estate,” they may – through dedicated perseverence to the heavenly cause – redeem themselves from their earlier lapses in judgement. This is why we see such variation in the life circumstances of each earthly child, it is a reflection of their pre-mortal sympathies.
The obvious answer is that we had free will. And yes you can defeat enemies without killing.
What about where stillborns and severely disabled fit in?
Mormon karma.
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