The wrong sort of testimony!

[Anonymous]

Thank you for adding me to the forum. I have read some of the other introductions and it makes me sad to see that so many other people are struggling with the same issues I am, but also relieved that this is obviously the right place to find people to talk to about all of it.

My testimony has been suffering since my junior year of high school, so about 1.5 decades, when I found that Moroni’s promise did not work for me. But I stayed active until two years ago when it got too hard to keep going due to a chronic illness. During that illness, which began seven years ago, I felt for the first time in my life complete abandonment by Heavenly Father. I cried out in desperate prayer countless times. I was doing everything I could, trying my best to follow the commandments, and my heart was humble and contrite. I could not (and still cannot) figure out why He would just not be there at all, and for such an extended period of time. I also had asked to be shown the solution to my illness or just to be shown something that would help. When that failed too many times I asked to please just feel His presence. That also failed. I know for a fact that I had enough faith to be healed. I had all the faith that it was possible for a person to have, with no doubt at all. But the healing did not come. And I felt a shocking absence of any heavenly care or love or concern of any type whatsoever.

Fast forward to now: I still pray, but it’s different. I no longer expect answers. It’s just something done out of habit because some part of me thinks there still might be benefit in it, maybe just as a thought exercise. Sometimes now I can feel the Spirit again. But I still feel like it isn’t true when the scriptures say, “Seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you.” I can’t express this at church.

My testimony now is more like this: I believe that all religions are true in the sense that people can communicate with the divine in all of them, and I cannot with much confidence say that any one of the world’s major religions is superior to any other. I love the LDS faith that I was raised in. It is an integral part of me that I don’t want to lose. I find tremendous value in it. I don’t know whether there is a being called God, but I think there is great benefit to believing that such a being exists. I think there is great potential value in adopting a faith tradition as valid and incorporating it’s values and scripture into one’s consciousness and using that to interpret one’s everyday experiences. I pick the LDS faith as the one I want to make a part of myself, but it is purely a personal choice based on admittedly subjective criteria.

That is the wrong sort of testimony, though, isn’t it? How can I regularly attend church with a testimony like that?! I will get into trouble, won’t I? It will upset people! And what do I do with my kids?

Thank you again for letting me join this forum.

Sent from my ONE E1005 using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

I thought it was wisdom when you said you pray, but without expectations. That is something I do as well. The rules that invoke miracles are so murky, it causes me as much turmoil as it does peace to try to use prayer as a means of bettering my life in significant ways. Pray regularly, and its nice when something good happens, but don’t expect anything “unless God wants it to happen”.

Regarding whether you can survive with the testimony you have, which is unorthodox and does not fit the church mold — yes! I do that all the time. Here are a few pointers.

1. Don’t tell anyone locally your naked beliefs– that will offend people, and shut you off from potential privileges you may want from the priesthood leaders eventually. You believe enough that you can speak in a way that doesn’t rankle people. Being able to share the naked truth here on StaylDS makes it easier.

2. Focus on what you have in common with the church.

3. Support your family in attending and being fully active. I am determined not to let the church be a wedge between myself and my family members.

4. Make achieving happiness your goal, not necessarily achievement of eternal life as the LDS church conceives it. You already believe that other churches are a conduit for people to engage with God, so I don’t think point #4 is too tough. I hope I am right. Make achieving happiness your goal. To the extent the church provides that, then engage with it, but don’t be afraid to open up your life to other new experiences that bring you joy. And don’t be afraid to set boundaries on what the church can extract from you if you think it’s not going to contribute to your happiness.

And there is an example of how you can believe unorthodox,yet speak orthodox. I could stand up in sacrament meeting and bear testimony about “men are that they might have joy”, that “happiness is the object and design of our existence”. I can point to all the ways happiness has come from living gospel principles — personal freedom due to not doing things that put me in legal trouble (drugs, alcohol, crime, infidelity), good relationships with people in and out of the church, pursuing growth opportunities in the service of others (I serve in the community more than at church), how belonging to a caring community assists with happiness production, how having new experiences produces happiness (talk about them in the context of family, and bingo, you are right on with orthodoxy again).

These are just examples from my own life. But focus on the overlap between your personal beliefs and church practices or doctrine. You do pray, and I assume you see some value in it. Don’t be afraid to share the value you get out of prayer, without talking about aspects of your believe that will upset people locally.

I don’t even think about the fact I’m unorthodox anymore unless I get asked to speak to the Bishop. I just accept who I am. I came to my own understanding of who I am and my relationship with the church a few years ago, and now I’m very comfortable with it. And happier than ever before. Truly.

It took me a while to get there. I felt guilty at times, felt strange, inauthentic, rebellious, and other untoward feelings. But now that the church is in the right place in my life, and I have found the overlap, and decided not to kick against the church, but simply put it in its proper place in my life, things are soooo much better!

[Anonymous]

Welcome. There are others that negate your testimony, but there is only you and God you need to be concerned with. Glad you found this site and the very accepting people on it. I hope over time you can find more and more peace.

[Anonymous]

squarepeg wrote:

My testimony now is more like this: I believe that all religions are true in the sense that people can communicate with the divine in all of them, and I cannot with much confidence say that any one of the world’s major religions is superior to any other.

Your testimony is yours, and you can own your religion and see it based on your honest experience, study, thought, and prayer. I don’t think it is “wrong” to have that kind of testimony.

There may be some social pressures when you think differently, and you feel others aren’t really accepting your view. But you just can accept that too. Embrace their view as much as you would hope they would embrace yours.

Focus on orthopraxy, and stay engaged to do good things. You may be surprised at starting to find answers to prayers and God responding when you are involved in the church. It can become a paradox…it isn’t true but it is true, all at the same time.

Yours is not the “wrong” sort of testimony…it is just your sort of testimony. And there are ways to stayLDS with your views.

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forum. I can relate to your abandonment by God, I felt (and feel) the same way. Despite him helping all those people in fast and testimony meeting find their lost car keys, he was not there when I really need him. I don’t pray often, but I also don;t expect answers. When I do pray I express my love for my family, my admiration for the beauty of the earth, and other such very vague things that I could really say to pretty much any man on the street. I don’t ask for anything.

Yes you can go to church with your testimony. Several things Pres. Uchtdorf has said (including but not only Come Join With Us https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng) make that exact point. Just because your testimony is not the same as what you perceive is on par with others (perceive is a key word) doesn’t mean the church isn’t for you. You won’t “get in trouble” unless you go blabbing about it, especially if you seem to be in opposition to church leaders or trying to gain a following. Note: leadership roulette is real and you do need to beware of sheep in sheep’s clothing – the kind that bite. IMO the best thing to do is just sit there, make subtle points as appropriate (or maybe not), and act like a sheep (which might include speaking sheepese) http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8006” class=”bbcode_url”>http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8006. The church is yours, you are not the church’s.

How old are your kids?

[Anonymous]

😆 😆 😆 😆 Great phrase — sheep in sheep’s clothing! Also the need to speak Sheepese. I love it. I laughed out loud. For real.

[Anonymous]

Any sort of testimony is the right sort of testimony. Church attendance doesn’t require a particular type – and I bear testimony that yours is not unique in the Church. There is a MUCH wider range of belief than you realize.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

My testimony now is more like this: I believe that all religions are true in the sense that people can communicate with the divine in all of them, and I cannot with much confidence say that any one of the world’s major religions is superior to any other. I love the LDS faith that I was raised in. It is an integral part of me that I don’t want to lose. I find tremendous value in it. I don’t know whether there is a being called God, but I think there is great benefit to believing that such a being exists. I think there is great potential value in adopting a faith tradition as valid and incorporating it’s values and scripture into one’s consciousness and using that to interpret one’s everyday experiences. I pick the LDS faith as the one I want to make a part of myself, but it is purely a personal choice based on admittedly subjective criteria.

Hi, squarepeg – I’m glad you’re here!

It’s not wrong, of course. All of the above will raise eyebrows and only you can decide if it’s worth it. I think everyone will be nice, but …. what? But might talk about you at lunch, might not consider you for certain callings, might come and hug you and thank you profusely for being so honest. You just never know, and a lot of the time we just kick the can down the road because the time and place don’t feel quite right. So here’s hoping that you feel at ease with whatever you decide, and use this group for support!

[Anonymous]

I’ll mostly “me too” what everyone else said, but add that I’ve found a lot of value in “praying” for those who have hurt me, in the form of compassion meditation. I’m frankly a little jealous that you can still pray in the conventional sense.

Awesome user name, and welcome to the forum! There’s a lot of collective wisdom here. May you have peace and happiness, and be free from this suffering.

[Anonymous]

Hi Squarepeg.

squarepeg wrote:

I know for a fact that I had enough faith to be healed. I had all the faith that it was possible for a person to have, with no doubt at all. But the healing did not come. And I felt a shocking absence of any heavenly care or love or concern of any type whatsoever.

I totally understand. My FC was because of this. We are a church with living prophets and an active interventionist God. We enter into covenants/contracts where we bind God to bless us. What happens when things go south and God does not step in? Then it seems that the small print reveals that actually God is somewhat capricious and will only fulfill his end of the deal in his own way and time. I get the concept of living through hardship and waiting on the Lord. However that is not what my church raised me to expect. This became a problem when my expectations did not match my reality.

squarepeg wrote:

I believe that all religions are true in the sense that people can communicate with the divine in all of them, and I cannot with much confidence say that any one of the world’s major religions is superior to any other.

The BOM teaches us that there are two churches only, the church of the devil and the church of the Lamb, and the church of the devil is actually a metaphor for everything and every system that takes us away from God. Then why can’t the church of the Lamb likewise be a metaphor for everything and every system that leads us closer to God? The work of God is much to vast and expansive for Him to do it all through our small church.

squarepeg wrote:

That is the wrong sort of testimony, though, isn’t it? How can I regularly attend church with a testimony like that?! I will get into trouble, won’t I? It will upset people! And what do I do with my kids?

You will get some pushback from time to time. It is hard and we do discuss some coping mechanisms that have worked pretty well for some of us on this board. As far as your kids, I say listen, validate, guide.

[Anonymous]

Welcome squarepeg!

squarepeg wrote:

. . . During that illness, which began seven years ago, I felt for the first time in my life complete abandonment by Heavenly Father. I cried out in desperate prayer countless times. I was doing everything I could, trying my best to follow the commandments, and my heart was humble and contrite. I could not (and still cannot) figure out why He would just not be there at all, and for such an extended period of time. I also had asked to be shown the solution to my illness or just to be shown something that would help. When that failed too many times I asked to please just feel His presence. That also failed. I know for a fact that I had enough faith to be healed. I had all the faith that it was possible for a person to have, with no doubt at all. But the healing did not come. And I felt a shocking absence of any heavenly care or love or concern of any type whatsoever.

I relate to your experience, at an important moment in my life I also felt a gaping absence of God. While it felt crushing at the time today it fits into my life story and plays an important role.

squarepeg wrote:

Sometimes now I can feel the Spirit again. But I still feel like it isn’t true when the scriptures say, “Seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you.”

You remind me of feelings I used to have. I don’t know if my story will be useful to you but I’ll throw it out. Ironically my faith crisis opened a personal path of spirituality for me that had been blocked before. My problem as I see it now is I was looking for the same experiences that other people told me about. I had an image of what I thought they experienced, and I assumed I would have that same type of experience. When nothing came that matched my expectations my entire “house of cards” eventually came down.

One day I simply decided to be open to whatever the universe might share with me, without any expectations going in. At the time I was even uncomfortable with the term “God”, it held too much baggage with me. I simply opened myself up to any connection that runs through humanity. It is very important to stress that I had completely shed all expectations and even hope, and that my curiosity was genuine. I was in a very real way walking a tightrope without a net. What followed I can only describe as the most powerful spiritual experience of my life. It didn’t even confirm to me that God exists in a way that I would have accepted before, but it was the planting of a fertile seed in that moment. The experience defies description, but the closest word is love. I opened myself up, and it came.

Obviously just as I could not relate to the experience of anyone else, I don’t expect you will duplicate mine. I only hope you can release all the expectations that may be holding you back, and take whatever comes to you.

Best wishes!

[Anonymous]

This forum is the best EVER! What amazing people! Thank you, all of you who took the time to reply. I appreciate it a lot.

It sounds hard to be fully active knowing that I can’t fully express where I’m at in terms of belief. But I think you guys are right that to be completely open would generally be unwise. I get a panicky feeling when I think about returning to full activity – it’s really wigging me out. But it also saddens me deeply to entertain the alternatives. I really miss it.

Oddly, supporting my family in their activity won’t be necessary. My husband and I met at BYU. My husband had served a full mission in Taiwan. I’d been active my whole life. I never thought we’d one day become “inactive.” We moved into our current ward a few years ago and just decided we wouldn’t attend anymore. It was pretty abrupt. My husband has completely lost his testimony, and my 12- and 10-year-old kids are pretty indifferent. My in-laws are active, and my father is active, but my mom and both of my brothers have gone inactive over the past decade. So going back will probably be uncomfortable in some ways, because I’ll likely be there not as part of a TBM family, but just as plain old me, not fitting into the mould or even appearing to do so. My husband doesn’t have the same sense of loss that I do since we “went inactive.” He is totally fine cutting himself off from everything church-related. He is also totally fine whether or not I choose to go to church. But he has no desire to go.

SilentDawning, I appreciate the reminder to make happiness the goal, and to accept who I am.

SilentDawning wrote:

The rules that invoke miracles are so murky, it causes me as much turmoil as it does peace to try to use prayer as a means of bettering my life in significant ways.

This! I sometimes find it necessary to go for periods of time without making any requests, but focus solely on what I’m grateful for, simply because I felt like continually exercising the faith involved in praying for blessings that never seemed to come was really messing me up big time.

LookingHard wrote:

…there is only you and God you need to be concerned with.

LookingHard,

I believe this is true, and sometimes wish that bishopric and stake presidency interviews for temple recommends, etc., were not done, because it puts an intermediary between the individual and God. Eastern Orthodoxy seems to put a lot of focus on the individual’s relationship with God being a personal one, and not anyone else’s business; I like that.

Heber13 wrote:

Focus on orthopraxy, and stay engaged to do good things.

Heber13, thank you. I had to google “orthopraxy”!

DarkJedi wrote:

When I do pray I express my love for my family, my admiration for the beauty of the earth, and other such very vague things that I could really say to pretty much any man on the street. I don’t ask for anything.

DarkJedi, thanks, I very much relate to that. Sometimes that is the only way I stay sane, with regards to prayer. I sense something valuable in the simple ritual of performing the act itself, but I feel less…manipulated…if I can do it while maintaining somewhat of a distance.

That Elder Uchtdorf talk is beautiful. I don’t quite understand the advice to “doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.” But the rest of it is so encouraging. Makes me want to keep trying. My kids are 12, 10, and 14-months. (Yes, we have a giant age gap between kids 2 and 3. Yes, #3 was conceived purposefully. Everyone asks.) Thanks, too, for the link to the threat about sheep and llamas. The Bednar Napoleon Dynamite gif alone made my day.

Roy, yes, that discrepancy between the expectation that the Church’s teachings gave me and what ACTUALLY happened…that is the problem!

Orson, thank you for sharing your experience. I would love to have a profound experience like that. I guess I’ve had a hard time letting go of one thing: the expectation that an individual’s faith should be able to influence actual events. That’s a notion of which I can’t quite let go, because I still think it might be true; I only know it doesn’t operate according to the rule book that I was told was applicable.

I sure am glad to have found all of you on this forum. Thank you for being here and letting me know things are okay.

[Anonymous]

squarepeg wrote:

That Elder Uchtdorf talk is beautiful. I don’t quite understand the advice to “doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.” But the rest of it is so encouraging. Makes me want to keep trying.

I actually had a part in my talk last Sunday about how I was a little disappointed that all some people got out of that talk that had made such a difference to me was “doubt your doubts.” I cut that part because it just didn’t feel right at the time. But I still think most people don’t get it. Here is something I wrote about that part shortly after it was given:

Quote:

Pres. Uchtdorf:

Quote:

Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”

It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is some context to “doubt your doubts.” The first paragraph talks about how natural it is to have questions, how there are few members who have not had questions, and how one purpose of the church is to nurture faith. It concludes with the statement about faith being hope for things that are true but not seen. The word faith has several related definitions which I believe can be summed up as a “firm belief” especially related to a religious belief. The word hope does not indicate a knowledge, it indicates a desire or perhaps a desire with an expectation. I think that last sentence in the first paragraph can be modified to “Firm belief is a desire for things which are not seen but which are true” without changing its meaning.

The second paragraph starts with the word “Therefore.” Therefore is a word used to indicate a conclusion is following. It means “for that reason” or “because of this.” The second paragraph, then, really starts with “because of this”…first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. I think that sentence was crafted very carefully and purposely. Pres. Uchtdorf could have simply said “therefore, doubt your doubts.” But he didn’t leave it at that, he included “before your doubt your faith.” Doubt means to feel uncertain about. So now we have a sentence that says “Because questions are natural, there are few members who have not had questions, and the church is here to nurture firm belief; and because firm belief is a desire for things which are not seen but are true, feel uncertain about your feelings of uncertainty before you feel uncertain about your firm beliefs.” I think before is a key word in that sentence, both the original and the revised. Going back to the first paragraph, Pres. Uchtdorf mentioned how the “acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding.” At no time has Pres. Uchtdorf indicated it is wrong to question or doubt, and in fact honest questions often lead to very strong (indicated by the oak) understanding. I think Pres. Uchtdorf did mean for us to question our doubts, to feel uncertain about our uncertainties, but after we have done that, after we have honestly inquired about our uncertainties, then we are in a position to feel uncertain about and honestly question our firm beliefs.

I think Pres. Uchtdorf’s hope is that after questioning our doubts then questioning our faith we will develop that “mighty oak of understanding” which can include both doubt and faith because (yes, there’s more) we shouldn’t let feelings of uncertainty keep us from “the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” When the scriptures speak of faith, they generally mean specific faith in Jesus Christ as referenced here by Pres. Uchtdorf. Many of us – almost every member according to Pres. Uchtdorf – have or have had questions or feelings of uncertainty about some aspects of the church. Usually those things are some question or doubt about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, or wrongs committed by church leaders past or present among other things. We can’t let our feelings of uncertainty keep us (hold us prisoner) from the love, peace and blessings that come from a firm belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The link to that thread is here: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4788&p=65257#p65257” class=”bbcode_url”>http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4788&p=65257#p65257

[Anonymous]

squarepeg wrote:

That Elder Uchtdorf talk is beautiful. I don’t quite understand the advice to “doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.”

Taken in context it could have said something like “Go slow and don’t rush to permanent judgments” or “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi, thank you. That’s a great analysis of the “doubt your doubts” bit. I agree – like most quotations, it’s best interpreted in context. I also agree with peteolcott in that thread that that counsel encourages bias, and with Roy that bias isn’t necessarily always best avoided, or even always possible to avoid. It’s really exciting to find other members of the church who overtly acknowledge the presence of bias, but in a positive light.

Roy wrote:

Taken in context it could have said something like “Go slow and don’t rush to permanent judgments” or “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”

Yes. I’m fully on board with that interpretation. I wish Elder Uchtdorf could’ve said that, instead of “first doubt your doubts”!

[Author]

Posts