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Dune definitely goes far deeper into religion, but it’s easier to do that in a book than in a movie. That’s why there still hasn’t been a really good Dune movie (though there’s a new one in the works–I don’t expect much). I grew up with the prequels, so I actually quite like those movies in spite of all the criticism. I always liked Anakin’s overall story throughout the saga. The idea that he was the Chosen One, but fell to the dark side. And after all that, he still fulfilled his purpose in bringing balance to the Force. When Anakin became Vader, it seemed like the prophecy was wrong. He joined the Sith and would seemingly never be the one to bring balance. In the end he was still the Chosen One, and the prophecy was right, just not in a way anyone expected. Anakin had a foreordained mission that he accomplished, but not by following the Jedi path.
Arrakeen wrote:
Dune definitely goes far deeper into religion, but it’s easier to do that in a book than in a movie. That’s why there still hasn’t been a really good Dune movie (though there’s a new one in the works–I don’t expect much).
I’ve always liked the Lynch version personally. There are some things it gets right – a lot of the sets are fantastic. There are some great scenes in it – the Spice Navigator arriving, the Gom Jabar and some of the Battle Scenes. Maybe not exactly like the book but quite stunning the first time I saw it. Oh and Patrick Stewart got the Captain Picard role off the back of it, so it’s a gift to Star Trek in a way too.
dande48 wrote:
Episode 8: Rey goes off to find the last Jedi, Luke. He trains her, but she doesn’t really need it. She tells him that the Jedi were corrupt, that they allowed the dark side to become so powerful by only embracing the light, and after restarting the Jedi order and failing, Luke wants to do away with the Jedi religion entirely. Kylo Ren, the new Darth Vader, reaches out to Rey through the force. He has become disillusioned with the Sith as well. He believes they should “let the past die”. The cycle of pain and suffering, the war of light and dark, empires vs repblic continues. The only way to break the cycle is by doing away with the cause of the cycle, the dichotemy and endless war between “light and dark”. He “captures” Rey, and brings her before the new Emperor. Kylo then betrays his emperor and master, and overthrows the new “Empire”. He then asks Rey to join him in breaking the cycle, doing away with both the Jedi and the Sith, and bringing in a better world. She rejects him… and this is what I HATE about Disney and gender politics… because it turns out what the Jedi really needed was not a paradigm shift, but a “Mary Sue” woman in charge. So Kylo takes over the first order, and the cycle still continues.
WHOA, You forgot ONE IMPORTANT THING. Kylo was TOTALLY FINE with letting REY’s FRIENDS DIE. She is like, order them to stop firing at the rebels! Kylo be like, nah you crazy, I don’t care about them, they gotta go. Rey has made all these connections with those people that Kylo was so chill about letting die. So, no, that ain’t no Mary Su. That’s Rey going, biznatch, I like those people, You wanna stop the war? Start right now and stop killin’ my friends. But noooo, he can’t do that because reasons.
So no. This is not Mary Sue woman in charge BS. Kthx. Kylo had a shot at really convincing Rey he wants to stop the war and he didn’t do it.
dande48 wrote:
But then it goes ahead and flips itself. What the Jedi need to overcome the dark, is not the paradigm shift, it needs a powerful woman in charge. And THIS is what rubs me the wrong way. I feel the same way about women in the priesthood. Sure, if they are allowed to recieve the priesthood, and serve as bishops, stake presidents, and the Q15, great for them! But is it really going to fix anything? Same problems, different faces. When women achieve powerful positions, it’s no longer a powerful man taking advantage of the “little guy”, the men and women working on ground floor. It’s now a woman taking advantage.
Nothing will change? That is so shortsighted of you.
According to our religion, YOU have more rights to give a NAME and a BLESSINGS to MY BABY that I BIRTHED. I do all that hard work, I have the job of raising up my child righteously as best I can, and I don’t even get to participate in a naming ceremony for my own child because I don’t have the priesthood.
My family is sick? Culturally I’m not allowed to give my own children a blessing of healing the sick unless there are literally ZERO priesthood holders (men) around to do it, but even then, it’s *only* a faith blessing. I can’t give my own husband a blessing either when he is ill. Men I have never met have more right to bless my family than me in our religion.
If I had a son, I wouldn’t be able to attend priesthood session, but oh you could go with him instead as a priesthood holder, but not his mama. Oh, but wait, actually, any man could take him, because nonmember men are allowed into priesthood session alllllll the time.
I can’t give a blessing to my women friends who need them, culturally. I can’t receive one from women. I don’t get a matriarchal blessing, just a patriarchal one. That’s like saying only the dad matters not the mom.
We aren’t allowed to do activities at church without a man in the building because “priesthood.” Can’t go out on a church activity like a hike or camping without men, because “priesthood” and you never know when someone will get hurt and you will need a blessing. We always have to be supervised like children. That is creepy af if you think about it. Men are willing to sleep with us and then turn around and treat us like underage girls who need adult supervision. GROSS. Women are perfectly capable of handling things and giving blessings during times of need.
Also prayer circle. Half the prayer circle is missing during baby blessings.
If we are truly co-equal there would be no hierarchy based on what’s between our legs.
The transition will be highly uncomfortable, because we’re not used to seeing each other as equal at church. But we will figure it out if we stop talking about all the reasons why we should keep women below men because hey, it’ll be just as bad still. If Black men can have their priesthood rights restored and have it all work out fine, I think we can handle women being afforded the same level of respect.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
According to our religion, YOU have more rights to give a NAME and a BLESSINGS to MY BABY that I BIRTHED.
According to our religion, the bishop and other Church leaders “allow” us to give the blessings. Priesthood is near meaningless without the proper “keys”, and “keys are held by other people. My “rights” only go so far as another man permits it. It’s to keep the commons “in line”, with the most obedient, strongest supporters of the status-quo getting into leadership. Like with Rey, if she’s going to lead the “Jedi Religion” using the same precepts, teachings, philosophies as before… absolutely nothing will change.
Different faces, same story. Endless cycles of conflict. I’m not saying it’d be a bad thing to give women the priesthood. I’m saying that whether or not they have the priesthood, the status quo will be maintained. To me, Rey is the epitome of a revolutionary leader who ultimately keeps everything the same. I can think of a number of leaders, past and present, who we’re just like that.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
Kylo had a shot at really convincing Rey he wants to stop the war and he didn’t do it.
I’d say, it was the other way around.
dande48 wrote:
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
According to our religion, YOU have more rights to give a NAME and a BLESSINGS to MY BABY that I BIRTHED.
According to our religion, the bishop and other Church leaders “allow” us to give the blessings. Priesthood is near meaningless without the proper “keys”, and “keys are held by other people. My “rights” only go so far as another man permits it. It’s to keep the commons “in line”, with the most obedient, strongest supporters of the status-quo getting into leadership. Like with Rey, if she’s going to lead the “Jedi Religion” using the same precepts, teachings, philosophies as before… absolutely nothing will change.
Different faces, same story. Endless cycles of conflict. I’m not saying it’d be a bad thing to give women the priesthood. I’m saying that whether or not they have the priesthood, the status quo will be maintained. To me, Rey is the epitome of a revolutionary leader who ultimately keeps everything the same. I can think of a number of leaders, past and present, who we’re just like that.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
Kylo had a shot at really convincing Rey he wants to stop the war and he didn’t do it.
I’d say, it was the other way around.
Wow. I’m flabbergasted that you do not see that you being allowed more rights than I based on what’s between our legs is not a problem.
Rey will not have the opportunity to bring back the Jedi religion. She has never read the Jedi texts and never will. Yoda destroyed them. It’s already different.
It seems to me that you seriously have a problem with women in power. So much so that you don’t have a problem with women not being able to bless their own children (and if you say you do, well, you just missed your opportunity to say that it matters because you just went straight to it’s all gonna be the same so why bother with it), and so much so you are chill with Kylo telling Rey that her friends should die and see Rey as the main problem in that scene. If Kylo wanted Rey on board all he had to do was order a cease fire. That was literally the only thing standing in the way of Rey choosing him. But nope, to you, she’s the problem. If Rey were a Ray, a man, I doubt you would have the same opinion.
Guys, I find this Star Wars debate stuff fascinating but we seem to be crossing some lines here. We cannot attack each other. Period. And accusations of sexism against individual members are clearly an attack.
Knock it off.
FWIW, I don’t appreciate you explaining my opinions or telling me what I believe. Oh, and Rey saved some of the jedi texts.
Criminy! What’s happened here? I have to admit the only thing which keeps me invested in Rey as a character is Daisy Ridley”s charm and acting skill. I believe the character is underwritten. And by the by, I always felt Luke sometimes wandered into Mary Sue territroy.
SamBee wrote:
I have to admit the only thing which keeps me invested in Rey as a character is Daisy Ridley”s charm and acting skill. I believe the character is underwritten.
Daisey Ridley is awesome! Most of the actors are, and do a fantastic job for what they are given. I just don’t like the writing. IMO, Jyn Erso/Felicity Jones is my all time favorite in Star Wars. Rogue One was fantastic, but I think that has to do with it being mostly written before Disney got involved.
I (obviously) think Luke had a much better story in the original trilogy than Rey in 7 & 8, but I think a lot of my love of his character has to do with how much I like Mark Hamill as a person. I HATED his writing in episode 8 (and episode 7, let’s be fair); but he did as well as he could with what he was given.
Roy wrote:
Guys, I find this Star Wars debate stuff fascinating but we seem to be crossing some lines here.We cannot attack each other. Period. And accusations of sexism against individual members are clearly an attack.
Knock it off.
I never defined anyone as sexist. I don’t see Dande saying that either or anyone else for that matter.
Dande
dande48 wrote:
FWIW, I don’t appreciate you explaining my opinions or telling me what I believe.Oh, and Rey saved some of the jedi texts.
I don’t appreciate the implications of your comments about women having the priesthood means nothing when I’ve clearly outlined why it is so important. It would be awesome for husbands and wives to bless their children together etc. Worthiness/leaders-in-power issues doesn’t make women’s ordination meaningless.
I had forgotten about Rey stealing some of the books, that was such a tiny snippet. Hopefully only the good parts, like the whole thing about balance, will be gleaned and the extreme stuff disregarded. My point still stands though. Kylo had the opportunity to prove to Rey that he cares. He could have said, Okay, I will spare them but they need to stop fighting too. And BOOM. She takes his hand. That would have been super interesting.
But one thing we have to be clear on too, is that Star Wars is a FAMILY franchise. So I can see why Disney chose not to go that route, and chose instead to keep it on the surface good vs evil. However, if they try to go the route that Rey can’t be in a romantic relationship because Jedi texts say so I will be very upset because definitely not a good family message imo.
(Admin Note): When people start getting misrepresented and attacks follow those misrepresentations, it is time to close comments. We are on the verge of that happening here. We will keep this post open IF, and only if, the conversation can proceed without misrepresentations of what others say and without personal attacks. If that can’t happen, comments will be closed.
I was making the analogy to leadership, not the priesthood. I don’t think it matters one bit the gender of who’s in charge, and as such sticking a woman in charge won’t fix anything, so long as the underlying principles and doctrines remain the same. That is the message I was getting from episode 8, as Rey is intent on holding onto the Jedi Order and “Resistance”. Plus, she’s insta perfect at everything, and very little character growth, which I feel sets up unrealistic expectationsLadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
Kylo had the opportunity to prove to Rey that he cares. He could have said, Okay, I will spare them but they need to stop fighting too. And BOOM. She takes his hand. That would have been super interesting.
He killed the first order leadership, and was ready to dismantle everything. He wanted the old organizations to be done away with. That doesn’t mean killing everyone. So long as there are “Rebels” there will be “Empires”. So long as there are jedi, there will be sith. And all will keep on fighting. Kylo hates the order, and the sith. But he also hated the jedi, because Luke tried to murder him out of fear of Kylo’s dark side (ironic?). Being on all sides, he recognized none of it is working. But as long as there’s still the “resistance” (meaning the organization, not the individual members), there will still be empires.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
But one thing we have to be clear on too, is that Star Wars is a FAMILY franchise. So I can see why Disney chose not to go that route, and chose instead to keep it on the surface good vs evil. However, if they try to go the route that Rey can’t be in a romantic relationship because Jedi texts say so I will be very upset because definitely not a good family message imo.
But the thing is, the problem with the Jedi (and the Church) to me isn’t the policies. The policies are symptomatic. It’s some of the main doctrines that are the real problem. That’s the message I got from episodes 1-6, anyways. Back to the Church, if a woman became prophet, woman still came from the rib of man. We can be accepting of gays, but God still commanded Moses to have them all stoned.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
Rey will not have the opportunity to bring back the Jedi religion. She has never read the Jedi texts and never will. Yoda destroyed them. It’s already different.
Rey actually saved at least some of the Jedi texts. They’re last seen on the Falcon. And it’s not clear that she did not study them while hanging out around Luke. The bigger question is not if she can restore the Jedi order (judging by today’s teaser she can), but should she?
DarkJedi wrote:
Rey actually saved at least some of the Jedi texts. They’re last seen on the Falcon. And it’s not clear that she did not study them while hanging out around Luke. The bigger question is not if she can restore the Jedi order (judging by today’s teaser she can), but should she?
Yeah, that was already pointed out to me. I had forgotten. Doesn’t change the fact that Kylo was trying to get Rey on his side and his way of doing that was to say let your friends die. Not exactly persuasive. The only reason why she paused at all is that he played on all her fears about her origins having come from nothing.
dande48 wrote:
I was making the analogy to leadership, not the priesthood. I don’t think it matters one bit the gender of who’s in charge, and as such sticking a woman in charge won’t fix anything, so long as the underlying principles and doctrines remain the same.I see that, except at church the leadership IS the priesthood. So, your using the church was a poor choice to make that point. A better example might have been kings and queens in history. Some were good, some where bad, regardless of gender.
Quote:He killed the first order leadership, and was ready to dismantle everything. He wanted the old organizations to be done away with. That doesn’t mean killing everyone. So long as there are “Rebels” there will be “Empires”. So long as there are jedi, there will be sith. And all will keep on fighting. Kylo hates the order, and the sith. But he also hated the jedi, because Luke tried to murder him out of fear of Kylo’s dark side (ironic?). Being on all sides, he recognized none of it is working. But as long as there’s still the “resistance” (meaning the organization, not the individual members), there will still be empires.
I don’t disagree, but, Kylo can’t say, I don’t think you’re nothing, join me, but in order to join me you gotta let me kill the people you care about. The rebels being fired upon weren’t necessarily extremist, and may have been amenable to a middle ground. Kylo could have had them captured and wooed them. So many other options.
Quote:
But the thing is, the problem with the Jedi (and the Church) to me isn’t the policies. The policies are symptomatic. It’s some of the main doctrines that are the real problem. That’s the message I got from episodes 1-6, anyways. Back to the Church, if a woman became prophet, woman still came from the rib of man. We can be accepting of gays, but God still commanded Moses to have them all stoned.
So, you take the creation as spoken of in the bible literally?
Are you talking about the whole man shall not lie with another man thing? If so, there is really good evidence that it’s actually man shall not lie with boy, that it’s actually talking about not engaging in pedophilia.
It’s not policies, it’s extremist policies. It’s a policy at hospitals that family NOT be present while someone is waking up from anesthesia because of how crazy people can be when they first wake up from it and family that aren’t trained for that whackiness most often make things worse while trying to help. That’s a good policy. A little annoying but ultimately good. Not allowing family to visit at all until the next day after surgery as a policy would be an extreme policy.
Teaching people to love, but also teaching people not to try so hard to win someone’s love to the point where you lose yourself is a good thing. Teaching you shouldn’t love at all is extremism.
Humans need structure, like our skeletons. Without any we are a pile of goo. With too much tension in our muscles or extra bony growths our bodies go out of whack and we have problems.
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