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Yea, I know, “Terminator” never fully leaves my brain mass. There is a storm coming though, within my head. It has to do directly with our beloved church and its path toward the extreme right. I am of liberal persuasion. I am not into paranoia, nor conspiracy theories. More and more I fall silent while with LDS friends, perhaps awaiting church gatherings to begin. More and more I want to stay STOP! I’m not interested. I pray for our American President. I vote my political conscience and work in causes I believe it (No on Proposition 8 for example). A 90 year old relative once told me, “I didn’t leave the church, the church left me.” I fear the same. I would repeat Rodney King’s suggestion, but many of you would ask why I’m quoting a black man. If the storm is as bad as I fear, it may drive me to seek kindred spirits elsewhere, or cause me to walk alone. I simply can’t understand why our leadership bids us be more inclusive. What’s the solution for you George? How are you going to get unstuck? We already know your key issue is social justice. “I didn’t leave the church, the church left me.” That is a statement made by someone who believes someone else controls them, someone powerless who refuses to take charge of their experience.
Be a politically liberal Mormon, who prays for a democrat president, who works on issues of social justice and tolerance for all. I’m an active member of the Church, and I think that is a great idea. So not everyone out there in our faith community think the opposite way. You might even be surprised at who else in your local area thinks those things.
A storm does not control us, no matter how bad it gets. We make choices. Our desire creates our reality.
George, the idea that anyone on this site would object to you quoting a black man is not only ridiculous, but also offensive. I am sure there are racists out there, but I haven’t met many in the church, and most certainly not on this site. I too dislike the rhetoric of some in the church who really like to conflate their political views with the religion. I was raised in a predominantly Democrat ward in the northeast, and I truly believed that members viewed one as less worthy if they voted Republican. And the evidence seemed clear; after all, the law of consecration seemed consistent with socialism philosophically, as did elements of polygamy. Imagine my surprise when I discovered Utah was predominantly Republican.
I also found it interesting that the church was almost 50/50 split between Republicans and Democrats in David O. McKay’s day. I still feel it’s important to let people vote their conscience, even if I think they are wrong. I will do the same. And I have also found that in wards where the education and income level is higher, there’s much more tact in avoiding political discourse at church.
I’m going to be brutally blunt, george: Quote:“I would repeat Rodney King’s suggestion, but many of you would ask why I’m quoting a black man.”
Where the hell did that come from? There is NOTHING in ANY thread on this site that warrants that statement. Not a thing.
As a fellow commenter, I only ask that you take a good, hard look at your assumptions and stereotypes and stop casting dispersions like that about me and everyone else here. It’s wrong, and it’s petty – and it’s completely unfair. I’ve spent most of my adult life serving and working in the Black community – and to read something like that here at this site . . . Very few things get my blood boiling, but, in all honesty, that one did.
I voted for Pres. Obama, and I have quite a few socially liberal beliefs. I was never challenged for expressing them, even on the High Council up until I moved a month ago. I was totally respectful, and people never condemned me for my beliefs. As I said in a different thread, they KNOW I love them despite our differences of opinion – that I refuse to argue with them about it – and they reciprocate by loving me despite our differences.
I believe that I am in charge of how people treat me – and I have learned that through observation and practice.
As an administrator and moderator:
That last comment used about every bit of community capital I can give. Don’t call us racists on this site again. That’s one thing that will bring my hammer down. I simply won’t allow it.
I really want you to find joy and peace here. I mean that. Please just try to understand why I reacted as I did. Please.
Interesting take Valoil. I hope you understand that I do pray for Republican presidents also. I don’t bring politics into the sanctuary and am sadden when they are preached from the pulpit. I have left the room on occasion. The ‘storm’ is my personal storm. I don’t wish to be driven out into the rain. I hope always, that Iron Rods and Liahonas can find places in the church, shouldn’t they be able to? As for the statement, “I didn’t leave the church….” I was told it about 1960 from a 90 year old relative. His one legged father had settled with the Saints (under direction of President Young), in San Bernardino, Cali. After building their home and planting their potatoes, they were told to return immediately to Utah (Johnson’s Army). Enoch Parrish exercised his agency and said NO. The church largely left and no branch was authorized. It was sixty years before missionaries came again (though the Reorganites came in forty). Young people married their neighbors in Protestant churches, so to re-establish Mormonism was difficult. There is a object lesson there somewhere…
I appreciate that we can present different views in this forum. Maybe ‘liberals’ will be heard. By the way, going backward, my voting record: Obama, Bush, Bush, Mondale, Nixon, Goldwater, couple of others, all Republicans, oh yea, Stevenson (the hole in the shoe guy). Mvto! (Creek for thanks for listening).
Ray, my apologies for my reference to blacks. It had something to do with recent comments in my ward. It has NOTHING to do with this website. I find goodness here, and I mean that in the best possible way. I learn from everyone and appreciate their take. George (great name, btw, same as my father, who is also very liberal) – a friend of mine writes a blog called “A Liberal Mormon” – http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/ – there are a lot of members in the church with liberal bents, and I think we/they all need to be a little more vocal YET be loving and patient and express our spirituality and/or testimonies at the same time.George means “farmer” in the original Celtic. Not to earth shaking (well, maybe it is earth shaking, hoeing, weeding…, but I digress). I like the handle, but the same mantle was not bestowed to my three sons. It had to do with a certain little ‘chime’ in my childhood… My last name has to do with our English occupation, “Windinghouse” was your textile mill, where clothes were woven (or “winded” – ancient form). Old-Timer wrote:I’m going to be brutally blunt, george:
Quote:“I would repeat Rodney King’s suggestion, but many of you would ask why I’m quoting a black man.”
As an administrator and moderator:
That last comment used about every bit of community capital I can give. Don’t call us racists on this site again. That’s one thing that will bring my hammer down. I simply won’t allow it.
Ray, I beg you to put away your blunt instrument and your hammer and hang your moderator’s hat a little higher on the wall. Answering something at the edges of civility with incivility and the power of position is, in my opinion, not helpful. Nor does it look inviting or good.
I will be very honest with all of you. I understand exactly why George feels the way he does. I was born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah. Right now, we DO have a problem. There is a small, yet growing number of groups that want to do certain things. It started out with little things like not allowing women to use a public golf course. Inspired by Tiger Woods, some young black women wanted to use a public golf course and were told “absolutely not”. A group of LDS women from Utah joined a cheering campaign called, “Hooray for Hootie”, Hootie being Hootie Johnson, the man who would not let women on the golf course. To add insult to injury, these same LDS women then published a campaign on the internet saying it was ok to rape one’s wife to whom one is separated. Most battered women who are murdered by their abusers are killed shortly AFTER leaving the marriage. This period of separation is considered the most dangerous time for battered women. These women need protection. I know it sounds like I’m on that old soap-box and this post will most likely not even be posted – I fully expect it to be deleted, but at some point in time we must all face the reality of where we are in terms of social justice, both in and out of the church.
Unpleasant topic, I admit.
Thank you, george, for the way you responded. I deeply appreciate that. Tom, I try very hard to not moderate – very hard. I will try even harder in the future – but I can’t let a statement that calls us racists stand. I just can’t.
All. as someone who has worked long and hard at reaching out to the black communities around me, I understand completely that the Church as an institution has just about zero “social capital” on race relation issues. If there has been a single failure of epic proportion in Church history in my mind, that is it. I personally don’t believe the priesthood ban was what God “wanted” in His heart, and I don’t think it was directed by Him, and I don’t think it was “inspired”. I think it was inevitable and a remnant of the Apostasy. Period.
I reacted as I reacted AFTER thinking about whether to react that way. It was NOT a strictly emotional decision. I felt it needed to be said for one reason:
We simply can’t make sweeping statements like that and be productive. If it had been left unchallenged, it would have stood for readers to assume as true. We have thousands who read what we write, and I felt I had to make it crystal clear how I FELT when I read that statement for all of those who read but don’t comment. That comes with the moderator / admin hat I wear.
Back to what I said at the beginning of this comment:
Thank you, george, for how you responsed. I DEEPLY appreciate it.
Thank you Ray for showing a willingness to point out/discuss. There certainly are racists in the Church. I find an undercurrent of ‘snugness’ toward several ethnic cultures. I’m speechless at times. I say this as a citizen of the Muscogee Creek nation, on the board of our California organization. I am a novice here at STAYLDS. I should never have assumed that folks here would not care to rehear the plea of Mr. King in one of our worst moments in Los Angeles history. Rodney King has gotten into other difficulties, but at the moment it was needed, he rose to remind us of our kinship, one with another. As a member of a tribe who were nearly destroyed (the Natchez), but who found safety and adoption by neighboring Muscogee Creeks, I have tender feelings toward all peoples. /palmface I am locking this thread. It is going nowhere except to make drama on the site and talk about it.
According to Google, there are 73,500,000 other sites on the internet about “social justice organizations.”
@everyone: I think George’s comment was handled appropriately. I had to sleep on it so I didn’t say something much worse than what Ray said. But it did need to be addressed and refuted appropriate to the level of the “offense”. So, thank you all for your continued civility. Thank you George, for the apology. Thank you Ray for the rebuttal and acceptance. And thank you Tom for the steadiness. This is probably the way it should work in an ideal forum world. I know it works beautifully for me.
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