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I need some advice from someone more experienced with people and less naïve than I am. I’ve come back to church after a period of deep soul-searching and thought, during which I developed what I feel are significant realizations about the Gospel. I am excited about these things, and I want to share them…but I think they make people uncomfortable. In Sunday school last week, we had a lesson on Jacob chapter two. The teacher and class focused on sexual depravity, specifically adultery through unauthorized polygamy. Although I feel like I certainly have much to learn when it comes to being chaste, I was struck by the beauty of the center of the chapter, which focuses on wealth, humility, and service—feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. Earlier in the week, I was pondering on the distance our fast offering program sometimes puts between the giver and receiver, and wondered about the virtue of directly helping the poor. I remembered these thoughts and innocently asked the class “If we have paid our tithes and offerings, have we completely discharged our duty to the poor?” The question went over very poorly. Instead of discussion, there were various defensive comments like “That’s personal” and “That’s between me and God”. I quickly realized that I needed to just keep my mouth shut.
The next hour in EQ, the teacher brought up a series of questions about the United Order. I have always cherished the idea of having all things in common, and I have never liked capitalism. One of the first responses was a surprised and disgusted “You mean like church-wide socialism?!!!” I decided I better just keep my mouth shut about my ideas, since they would probably be labeled “socialist”. It was unpleasant.
So, what should I do? I want to be active in the church (for my own reasons), but I live in an ultra-conservative ward, and I am a left-leaning moderate. A moderate! I also like to pick ideas apart, and I think many people who are in church for more ritualistic aspects (like Sunday school ritual) are disturbed and offended. Should I just keep my mouth shut? I haven’t lived in the ward long, and I don’t have any street cred. Besides, I’m not sure I care about changing them. I just want a Sunday school for people like me. Thoughts?
What should you do? Speak up here! These are awesome thoughts and could generate some wonderful inspiration
Eagerly awaiting….
Cate
Turinturabar, this sounds like my experiences. You said: Quote:So, what should I do? I want to be active in the church (for my own reasons), but I live in an ultra-conservative ward, and I am a left-leaning moderate. A moderate! I also like to pick ideas apart, and I think many people who are in church for more ritualistic aspects (like Sunday school ritual) are disturbed and offended. Should I just keep my mouth shut? I haven’t lived in the ward long, and I don’t have any street cred. Besides, I’m not sure I care about changing them. I just want a Sunday school for people like me.
Right now I also stay silent. I know that for the short term, that’s fine. For the long term, (assuming that I stay for the long term), I know that I will be miserable staying silent. I advise you to speak & give your opinions. In this case, no where does it say that the United Order is Socialism.
I’ve always believed that it’s important & necessary to challenge beliefs, lessons, thoughts & programs.
This way we give energy to the lessons. We provoke thought & discussion. Any other way & I feel like someone wants me to behave like a robot.
That’s not my style or belief. I for one, would love to be in your class when you reply to the lesson. I’m sure you would make it interesting.
Mike from Milton.
TT, you may want to read through a thread where Ray posted how he is approaching fitting into a new ward, and wayfarer and Brian comment on their approach as well: http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3095http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3095” class=”bbcode_url”> I find with communicating with others, trust is a big part of understanding each other, regardless of the words communicated. Some on this board have talked about building up enough social capital to speak freely, so others trust your intentions.
I have often found weighing my comments in my mind against these three things:
– Tact:Am I able to tactfully share my comments that won’t offend others, but is beneficial to the class? Therefore, blurting out “Joseph had 33 wives” just as a shocker isn’t tactful in a classroom setting, and is usually not conducive to the spirit. I need to show tact in how I deliver sincere questions. As mercyngrace said, somethings are better for blogging instead of classroom discussion. Use tact. – Timing:Is it appropriate in class and at the right time to ask some questions, or is it derailing the lesson or throwing curveballs to the teacher that doesn’t need to be done? Sometimes better timing for some questions is privately one-on-one hallway discussions. Sometimes a tricky question right after someone else spoke can just feel like an attack on the last speaker. So the timing of the question also can be a factor on how it is received. – Dosage:Am I going too far or getting into too much detail that overloads others? Sometimes my comments can be small doses of little bits of information that others can digest, not trying to overload them or in any way show off how much I know. So the amount of comments and the depth of the comments is also a factor to consider in how others can receive it. In general, I think staying silent lessens the experience for you to participate. I don’t recommend that long-term. However, navigating the culture in your particular ward is tricky, and you need to consider the amount of trust and capital you have with others, and then deliver comments and questions with tact, timing, and dose to make sure you are adding to the discussion, not taking away from the spirit of it. I honestly think it can be done effectively. But it is done over time, just one or two bad experiences are likely to happen, but should be overshadowed with multiple healthy experiences, and as people get to know you outside the class with service, with callings, with conversations in the hallway … like how Ray seeks to do in getting to know people and letting them know his heart … they will know your heart and respond to your questions openly (depending on how mature your ward is).
What do you think?
BTW, blurting out “Joseph had 33 wives” would have been a perfect fit for that lesson, and it actually crossed my mind, but I shot it down. 👿 The scriptural passage in question was in Jacob 2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
I thought of another statement/question to ask instead: “Many in the US still connect the church with polygamy. What should we tell them when they ask about it?” But, I didn’t do it. I felt like my social capital for the lesson had already been spent on the giving to the poor exchange.
I’d stay focused on the gospel and do your best to neutralize politics in the discussion, even if others introduce it. Try starting sentences with “Politics aside,” or something like that. The political parties in the US currently have zero to do with the politics in Jesus’ time. They also have little to do with political views outside the US. The foundational premises and the problems that people are trying to solve are different. Here’s the dirty little secret I’ve learned: 99.9% of people can’t tell the difference between their political views and the gospel.
Interesting quandary, and one I’ve faced as well. I’ve enjoyed reading the other posters to see their thoughts. I echo mercyngrace’s comment that this site is a great place to discuss harder questions, because the general population here is much more open to alternate views. It’s actually one of the things I really appreciate about this site; you can say things here that you can never say in church, and sometimes hearing yourself say something outloud (or reading what you’ve written) is a great way to verify that you really believe something. A couple of thoughts on how to abide situations like the one you were in.
First of all, I’d consider Joseph Smith to be a type of socialist. That’d be a bombshell to blurt out in class, so there’s no good that could come from it. But in your own mind, in your own heart, you can chuckle to yourself and feel a little better that you get it. You don’t need to convince anybody in order to enjoy the irony.
More importantly, when a teacher or another class member is making statements that follow the party line, but which you don’t accept, at least for me, I find no need to interject. I respect that they feel that way… that’s their choice. Getting into a debate would only cheapen both of our beliefs. I don’t need to comment on everything in order to be filled with the knowledge that good people are trying to seek good. People on this site have wildly different ideas about the gospel from me. So be it. I applaud their personalization of the concepts into something that they can hold firm to. It’s really no different at church, except that the opinion expressed happens to be the majority, rather than minority one. So, what works for me, is simply to look at someone else’s faith and find the good in it.
I have spent quite a bit of time in the church as a Gospel Doctrine teacher. I always prepared my lessons with a main point that I would build towards throughout the lesson. I didn’t necessarily want a bunch of random comments about “when I read this chapter I thought of my Aunt who used to make apple pies in the fall and…” because it would throw off the rhythm. I’m not saying that I didn’t want participation, because I did, but I always tried to seek it in fairly narrow ways to stay on the basic arc of the lesson… still moving forward to a final meaning. A common practice, but one I don’t really like, is broad, unfocussed questions, like “does anyone want to share a personal experience about prayer?” Those will kill any organization to a lesson. On the same token, adding unsolicited comments is probably going to cause more awkward moments that positive ones. I’m not saying you have to stay silent, but maybe look more for opportunities to add value to what the teacher is trying to get to, rather than stating an off-topic personal platform.
One thing I’ve always tried to do when I’m giving a talk or a lesson, is to avoid preaching a concept. If it’s something we could do better, I turn it onto myself as an example of something I need to improve on… and try to say something like, “you know sometimes I start feeling like I’m doing OK, then when I read this passage, I don’t know, it was kind of a kick to the gut, because I realized that I’m not doing all the things that God expects me to do…” Then I go on to talk about it in a personal level. That way it doesn’t come across like I’m challenging other people. Rather, I’m admitting that I could do a better job, and most listeners will project that onto themselves, which is what I want anyway. Thing is, we are all in this together, so if we bring it down to a personal level, then the talk/lesson comes across as two comrades (that’s for you TT) that need help from each other. Maybe, when you have very good thoughts, like the taking care of the poor section, you could couch it in those terms instead of asking others if they are doing enough.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts. Your mileage may vary.
-On Own Now
Quote:The next hour in EQ, the teacher brought up a series of questions about the United Order. I have always cherished the idea of having all things in common, and I have never liked capitalism. One of the first responses was a surprised and disgusted “You mean like church-wide socialism?!!!” I decided I better just keep my mouth shut about my ideas, since they would probably be labeled “socialist”. It was unpleasant.
Well, I get really annoyed when people misunderstand the thee/thou thing.
I did get a laugh the other day, when the teacher compared the Holy Ghost to the gas in the tank. He asked “why do we need gas?” and I said, “Well, because the petroleum companies have done their utmost to make sure cars won’t run on much else.” And I mentioned that in Brazil, they’d run their cars on other things for years…
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