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Gina Colvin at athoughtfulfaith.org interviews Jacob Hess in her podcast. (Sorry I can’t link on my phone, but it comes straight up just putting in the names.) I’m not a huge fan of his speaking style, but his approach may be lifesaving for me. I would love to know what others think. I still come up hard against some problems.
I also enjoyed the conversation. Jacob Hess reminds me some of an old time StayLDS participant Tom Hawes as somewhat of an LDS Hippie.
Jacob seem to be arguing for dialogue and humble curiosity and reaching over divides. Unfortunately none of that seems to be highly valued in the LDS church. We seem to esteem staking our position, dogmatic certainty, and an us vs. the world mentality. For many people who try to do as Jacob is asking, they find the LDS environment trammeling and stifling
On the other hand, I completely agree with his assertion of the beauty that is found between the extremes. We here at stayLDS are a testament to this. In some ways we can bridge that gap of understanding between factions that in many ways seem to be talking past one another. It can be a thankless job sometimes but in many ways we are desperately needed for healthy balance in the church.
Again, makes me miss Tom Hawes.
😥 Roy wrote:I also enjoyed the conversation.
I listened today as I had a long drive. It was very good.Roy wrote:Jacob Hess reminds me … as somewhat of an LDS Hippie.
Yes. I assume he wasn’t high, but if he would have thrown in a few “dudes!” and had the accent of the turtle in Nemo I would question it. Maybe we need some of that piped into COB. Get some mellow going on.Roy wrote:Jacob seem to be arguing for dialogue and humble curiosity and reaching over divides. Unfortunately none of that seems to be highly valued in the LDS church.
My thoughts exactly. The conversation they both had was GREAT, but it seems to me many/most would have nothing of that in the church. Many that might want to talk so bluntly are afraid of getting religiously “yelled at” by the first group and feel they must be doing something wrong.Roy wrote:… we are desperately needed for healthy balance in the church.
AMEN!
Roy wrote:😥 😥 (done a lot of that this week)Same, really enjoyed the conversation. The part they didn’t get to, which is the part I struggle with, is how to co-exist in such different paradigms? Especially when one paradigm dominates and doesn’t seem to be much interested in self-examination or dialogue. I think most of us would welcome that kind of interaction at church, but it doesn’t seem to be something that has been or will be acceptable in the future.
SunbeltRed wrote:Same, really enjoyed the conversation.
The part they didn’t get to, which is the part I struggle with, is how to co-exist in such different paradigms? Especially when one paradigm dominates and doesn’t seem to be much interested in self-examination or dialogue. I think most of us would welcome that kind of interaction at church, but it doesn’t seem to be something that has been or will be acceptable in the future.
Yes. I think that is what Roy was saying with his statement of
Quote:Jacob seem to be arguing for dialogue and humble curiosity and reaching over divides. Unfortunately none of that seems to be highly valued in the LDS church.
I see only a little reaching out to understand and much much more, “just get in line – hurry up and get right in line or we will look bad to outsiders!!”This is a very shorthand summary: Jacob Hess (conservative Mormon boy) was taken care of by his militantly liberal colleagues and mentors at U. Of Illnois after his brother’s death. Put in motion a profound change in him.
“When you fall in love with your political opposite, it changes everything…. You have to find other ways to make sense of this conversation. The space between liberal and conservative is really special, a place of huge learning. I’m convinced we can learn things together across these differences that we’re never going to learn alone. Instead of just saying, It’s been a week! Let’s move on!, Let’s turn towards the pain in a tender way.
Every teaching has at least two thoughtful interpretations. Every person has both conserving and changing tendencies. If we could sit down and catalog al the things we potentially want to conserve we’d be surprised and the common interests we have.
OTOH, Aristotle talked about coming together in the public square to talk about the good. Unfortunately in America, conservatives have been the ones to say, We’re the moral ones. If you’re on the other side, you’re immoral. We create conditions where we can’t have a conversation about the good. We’re too focused on “working on” each other.
There’s an assumption hat someone in my shoes eventually sees the light and joins the progressive movement. [He’s still conservative.] But I’ve fallen in love with the liberal community. What has changed is my heart. I don’t have any fear. When you have a residue of affection, it starts to work in you, just as residue of resentment can. I have conservative friends to who hate liberalism so much they get up and leave sacrament meeting if they hear certain things. Starts to become a health problem.
The goal of dialogue is understanding, period. But things always emerge from that understanding. The God I worship loves heartfelt conversation and many people are scared of that.
Re. current conflict – We need to make room for the pain for as long as needed. Use this moment to get curious about our differences. Make a space for uncertainty and leave open the possibility of things surprising us.
For an organization that sees exaltation as it does it seems sensible that they would draw certain lines in protecting what they see as the path.
I know hope was that as children on gay people grew up in the church, the church would be forced to become accepting. Not trying to convince you, [Gina Colvin], but I think the church has a defensible perspective.
Continued: Gina Colvin -Strict binary mother/father-maleness/femaleness increasingly seen as uneducated, unsophisticated view of gender. Authority and influence of church is declining.
JH – The other view is that society has left behind precious things we want to conserve. Are we locked, then, in a culture war, a philosophical fight to the death? What happens in the space between these two extremes? I don’t want the moral authority of the church on a level with the KKK; there’s a petition to label the church as a hate group. That hurts my heart.
GC – What about the idea of the church is us. Our dialogue can craft and shape? But in an authoritarian church, all we can do is respond, submit – or step away.
JH – Body of Christ is all of us and the Brethren are supposed to be the servants of us all. But we also shouldn’t judge the church on the basis of this one thing [like you don’t go to the doctor and have just one limb or organ examined]; instead, How are we administering to the poor? How welcoming are we to non-members? Are we finding God in our own lives? I think the brethren could have handled this differently. Critical questions aren’t wrong.
GC – Our conversations need to be more capacious. I’m a cradle Mormon- always had affection for the Brethren, and looked to the them as moral authorities. This policy feels like an ethical lapse. We have notion of decisions coming only from two sources, authority or revelation. Do we lack skills to approach difficult questions ethically, well- thought out? This policy fails three tests: Does this pass the smell test? Could I run this policy by my mother – or other moral authority in my life- and make her proud? Could I put this on the front page of the newspaper and be proud?
GC – What are the tools I need to arrest this fury in me?
JH – I don’t see everything the same way. Mindfulness practices have a lot to offer. 1) Sit with everything; 2) Be furious, disappointed AND love the brethren. We want to be resolved and certain, but what if we could make space for all of it. By making space for all of it, it changes on its own in a natural, organic way. We get in our own way. Be open and vulnerable enough to hear. We can stay in our silos as long as we want; I’m not interested in that.
Continued: GC – I can sit and be mindful, but I keep thinking about the people on the front end of this. I’m coming from a place of privilege, it doesn’t directly affect me.
JH – We should give a priority to people directly experiencing things. But there are other stories, other aspects of this hat aren’t getting the same press. Hold all the stories.
JH – People want to resign and I say, Don’t go! It hurts me to think of losing people who are thoughtful and insightful. The Kingdom of God is still in progress. The God I worship wants us to yield our hearts as much as we can, but not force ourselves.
GC – What is there to hold people in this space? If you could go to the rally, what would you say?
JH – In the silence of your worship at home, in your holy places, have you felt an assurance that God is in this work? Hold on to that assurance…. In our most important relationships, don’t many of us dig deep? My wife and I have held onto memories in rocky times. There is something to be learned and gained in the tension.
GC – Let’s detach from our positions and privilege the Spirit.
JH – We don’t want this moment of alarm and concern to cover everything. Base decisions on all of my experience, not just his moment. Either the church is a place [maybe not for all] that facilitates those good moments or it is not. I feel the burden of sin lifting from my shoulders. There are things I couldn’t do without the assistance on the church.
[This is NOT a great rendition of the conversation, but I wanted to get some of it out in print. I’m also not saying I can do as he says. I’m just looking to get some traction.]
He makes an important, even vital, point about neither extreme being healthy. I believe strongly that the Church doesn’t need either extreme to dominate but that it needs a healthy moderate voice. Ironically, while I don’t agree with every decision, Indo appreciate the sincere attempt, I believe, on the part of the current leadership to create a moderate space – even though actions that are more extreme dominate the news and people’s attention. The same-sex policy is nearer one extreme – but the immigration policy statement is nearer the other extreme. That direction risks alienating BOTH extremes, so I am inclined to acknowledge the difficulty of the task and grant some slack when certain choices bother me – while understanding why some people can’t do that.
I really do believe the current leadership is trying to bring a level of moderation to the Church, and I am sympathetic to that struggle, having participated here for so long.
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