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If the elders show one falsehood for the propose to deceive like JS translating the plates with OC setting across the table and the plates are visible to both then we are teaching a lie and it is wrong. Agian there should be something every month in the church magazines to Correct the mistakes not some tidbit that most people don’t ever pay attention to. They can say because we are releasing the JS papers all is made right but at the high cost and difficulty of the reading it is not going to get to to masses. I thinks that the very life of the church depends on them getting the truth out there as fast and straightforward as possible but still be prudent and sensiable. We are loosing good people everyday. My two cents on this topic turn out to be more like 5 cents. I have mixed feelings about history and testimony. I will post that another time. However, directly related to the idea of transparency or telling the story I see two conflicts. Conflict #1. – In agreement with others, just because a few references in magazines exist does not make the information open. It’s great, it helps, and can be used. But even that bit of information is just that – a bit. For decades Emma Smith was never mentioned or when she was, it was with a slant that she had defected or was less than worthy. Then around 1980 a couple of her grandchildren joined the church. They were proud of their great-grandma, one of them wrote a book about Joseph and Emma. Anyway, suddenly the ice began to thaw around Emma. Now she was an elect lady, who did amazing things, and endured much. Statues began appearing, movies, books, Emma the shunned, was now main stream and heroic. (Which in my mind she always had been).
What about Joseph’s other wives. To me they were as amazing as Nephi. I believe more of them married/sealed to him with a Godly goal. Yes, maybe there was an attraction, but historians have enough evidence to show that these women wrestled with their hearts and minds to comply. It is an amazing tail of faith. None of them get credit. A few words eluding to Joseph’s practice of polygamy buries their sacrifice and faith. We are a people based on faith.
I believe my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t rest on Joseph’s polygamy or on our Church’s Christian-ness, but hiding their sacrifice saddens me.
My #2 – Just because the Joseph Smith papers exist and have these great clarifications doesn’t mean that the standard practicing ward uses or accepts them.
Last week our new Relief Society President spent the first half of the meeting explaining that the only sources we can use for teaching and comments comes from the approved manual (she turned the book around and pointed to the authorized stamp on the back), the ensign, and the scriptures. Anything else will not be acceptable during the time of her leadership. No Joseph Smith papers, etc. Her husband is Gospel Doctrine teacher. I’m sure the source material will be the same. I understand why, but again I think we have some very amazing truths we hide, when we limit much of this information.
mom3 wrote:My two cents on this topic turn out to be more like 5 cents. I have mixed feelings about history and testimony. I will post that another time. However, directly related to the idea of transparency or telling the story I see two conflicts. Conflict #1. – In agreement with others, just because a few references in magazines exist does not make the information open. It’s great, it helps, and can be used. But even that bit of information is just that – a bit.
For decades Emma Smith was never mentioned or when she was, it was with a slant that she had defected or was less than worthy. Then around 1980 a couple of her grandchildren joined the church. They were proud of their great-grandma, one of them wrote a book about Joseph and Emma. Anyway, suddenly the ice began to thaw around Emma. Now she was an elect lady, who did amazing things, and endured much. Statues began appearing, movies, books, Emma the shunned, was now main stream and heroic. (Which in my mind she always had been).
What about Joseph’s other wives. To me they were as amazing as Nephi. I believe more of them married/sealed to him with a Godly goal. Yes, maybe there was an attraction, but historians have enough evidence to show that these women wrestled with their hearts and minds to comply. It is an amazing tail of faith. None of them get credit. A few words eluding to Joseph’s practice of polygamy buries their sacrifice and faith. We are a people based on faith.
I believe my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t rest on Joseph’s polygamy or on our Church’s Christian-ness, but hiding their sacrifice saddens me.
My #2 – Just because the Joseph Smith papers exist and have these great clarifications doesn’t mean that the standard practicing ward uses or accepts them.
Last week our new Relief Society President spent the first half of the meeting explaining that the only sources we can use for teaching and comments comes from the approved manual (she turned the book around and pointed to the authorized stamp on the back), the ensign, and the scriptures. Anything else will not be acceptable during the time of her leadership. No Joseph Smith papers, etc. Her husband is Gospel Doctrine teacher. I’m sure the source material will be the same. I understand why, but again I think we have some very amazing truths we hide, when we limit much of this information.
Agreed, agreed – and to the last point… My heart sinks at the sound of it.
In reality, very few people know the history and I think the church would keep it that way if they could.
Regarding polyandry, Brian Hales has just put out 3 books on the subject of polygamy and gets to the source documents. He claims that of the 14 women married to other men, 11 were “eternity only” sealings (the husbands were non-members), and therefore were not sexual in nature. I think he believes the other 3 were were non-sexual relationships (LDS husbands), but I have to double check that. When I was teaching the JS manual in RS, there was a specific prohibition in the beginning of the manual to bring up polygamy in class. Frankly, I didn’t feel there was a lot of uplift to be gained from discussing it, so I didn’t mind being asked to avoid the controversy, but I knew about it. The one lesson that went too far for me was the “Love Letters of Joseph and Emma” which was devoid of gospel content and extremely misleading about the nature of their relationship. I told the RS president I couldn’t in good conscience teach it. the church handbook doesn’t prohibit the use of non-church stamped material. that was an indivdiual choice. DBMormon wrote:the church handbook doesn’t prohibit the use of non-church stamped material. that was an indivdiual choice.
I know that our church library has several notices prominently displayed that only official sources should be used for teaching. I understand the reasoning and I don’t want some teacher teaching out of “The Secret” or some other random book. But I also think that to imply that this RS president’s decision to only use church stamped material was a personal choice and not in line with the expectations she may be receiving from higher up (just because the handbook doesn’t mention it), may not reflect the totality of the situation.
mormonheretic wrote:Regarding polyandry, Brian Hales has just put out 3 books on the subject of polygamy and gets to the source documents. He claims that of the 14 women married to other men, 11 were “eternity only” sealings (the husbands were non-members), and therefore were not sexual in nature. I think he believes the other 3 were were non-sexual relationships (LDS husbands), but I have to double check that.
Shawn wrote:I am here to apologize and admit I am eating crow. I have learned that three women who were married to another man had sex with Joseph: Sarah Ann Whitney, Mary Heron, and Sylvia Sessions. This is according to Brian Hales in the
“12 Myths Regarding Joseph Smith’s Polygamy”I am sorry. Everyone can pretty much disregard what I have previously wrote about Joseph.
church0333 wrote:What is being taught cosistently over the pulpit and in the missionary lessons? That is where the real message is being taught and at GC. Mentioning something ever five years in a magizine isn’t cutting it. Really how many member read the ensign from cover to cover every month? Those that do are all the TBMs.
…Agian there should be something every month in the church magazines to Correct the mistakes not some tidbit that most people don’t ever pay attention to. They can say because we are releasing the JS papers all is made right but at the high cost and difficulty of the reading it is not going to get to to masses.
Something struck me as I as driving recently. Thankfully, it struck only my mind and I didn’t crash. Anyway, no one has to read every page of every church magazine or thoroughly study the Joseph Smith papers. It’s just a matter of googling for information. Isn’t that how many of us came across negative church history?mom3, hang in there.
mom3 wrote:What about Joseph’s other wives. To me they were as amazing as Nephi. I believe more of them married/sealed to him with a Godly goal. Yes, maybe there was an attraction, but historians have enough evidence to show that these women wrestled with their hearts and minds to comply. It is an amazing tail of faith. None of them get credit. A few words eluding to Joseph’s practice of polygamy buries their sacrifice and faith. We are a people based on faith.
I believe my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t rest on Joseph’s polygamy or on our Church’s Christian-ness, but hiding their sacrifice saddens me..
There is at least one who’s story is being told. There’s a new book called“Eliza, The Life and Faith of Eliza R. Snow.”It appears that Eliza is the exception. How much information about the other women is even available?
Roy wrote:DBMormon wrote:the church handbook doesn’t prohibit the use of non-church stamped material. that was an indivdiual choice.
I know that our church library has several notices prominently displayed that only official sources should be used for teaching. I understand the reasoning and I don’t want some teacher teaching out of “The Secret” or some other random book. But I also think that to imply that this RS president’s decision to only use church stamped material was a personal choice and not in line with the expectations she may be receiving from higher up (just because the handbook doesn’t mention it), may not reflect the totality of the situation.
Library? yes the library must keep official material. But the why that is is actually in your favor. It is to keep out the “believed Doctrine” over “actual Doctrine” It is the rule that keeps out Mormon Doctrine, Doctrines of Salvation, and other books written by leaders that don’t have the stamp of the church. Yes it also becomes a double edge sword as it excludes Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Tolling, or Terryl Givens “By the hand of Mormon”
But it is a positive reason that the rule is in place.
DBMormon wrote:the church handbook doesn’t prohibit the use of non-church stamped material. that was an indivdiual choice.
I’ll have to look for the reference, but I think there is a prohibition in certain manuals. But I happily ignore it.
Edit: Actually, willing to correct myself and say it’s worded as not being as absolute as I thought. It provides wiggle room:
Quote:
Teach by the Spirit from the Scriptures and the Words of Latter-day ProphetsPresident Ezra Taft Benson taught: “What should be the source for teaching the great plan of the Eternal God? The scriptures, of course—particularly the Book of Mormon. This should also include the other modern-day revelations. These should be coupled with the words of the Apostles and prophets and the promptings of the Spirit” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1987, 107; or Ensign, May 1987, 85).
Use Church-Produced Lesson Materials
To help us teach from the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets, the Church has produced lesson manuals and other materials. There is little need for commentaries or other reference material. We should study the scriptures, teachings of latter-day prophets, and lesson materials thoroughly to be sure we correctly understand the doctrine before we teach it.
I also like how this provides room: Quote:
2. Ensure that Sunday School teachers use Church-approved curriculum. Elder M. Russell Ballard counseled: “Teachers would be well advised to study carefully the scriptures and their manuals before reaching out for supplemental materials. Far too many teachers seem to stray from the approved curriculum materials without fully reviewing them. If teachers feel a need to use some good supplemental resources beyond the scriptures and manuals in presenting a lesson, they should first consider the use of the Church magazines” (“Teaching—No Greater Call,” Ensign, May 1983, 68).The Lord stated in the Doctrine and Covenants that teachers should teach “none other things than that which the prophets and apostles have written, and that which is taught them by the Comforter through the prayer of faith” (D&C 52:9).
Quote:Teach “none other things than that which the prophets and apostles have written,
and that which is taught them by the Comforter through the prayer of faith”(D&C 52:9). It seems to me that allowing personal revelation to contribute to a lesson give some more wiggle room. But what trumps the correlation committee’s restrictions, IMO is what our canonized scripture says:
A couple of years ago I had this discussion with my bishop, but while winning the “battle” feel I ultimately am loosing the “war” to the TBM’ers. Nevertheless, I passionately have more confidence in the scriptural counsel than in the correlation committee (even with supposed approval of the brethren) So use at your own digression:
D&C 88:78–79
(learn astronomy, geology, history, current events, international relations and cultural understanding, geography.)78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—
Doctrine and Covenants 88:118
118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the
best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith. Doctrine and Covenants 109:7
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the
best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith; Doctrine and Covenants 109:14
14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the
best books, and that they may seek learning even by study, and also by faith, as thou hast said; D&C 130:19
19 And if a person gains
more knowledge and intelligence in this lifethrough his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. D&C 9:7-9
7. Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9. But if it be not right, you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
Articles of Faith 13
“If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Moroni 7:8
“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him…Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.”
Brigham Young
“Mormonism embraces all truth that is revealed and that is unrevealed, whether religious, political, scientific, or philosophical.”
Joseph Smith
One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. I don’t reject truth for being non-mormon or accept it just because a mormon said it.
Joseph Smith
Mormonism is truth. . . . The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.
Hugh B. Brown’s statement
“Preserve, then, the freedom of your mind in education and in religion, and be unafraid to express your thoughts and to insist upon your right to examine every proposition. We are not so much concerned with whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts.”
Gordon B. Hinckley
This restored gospel brings not only spiritual strength, but also intellectual curiosity and growth. Truth is truth. There is no clearly defined line of demarcation between the spiritual and the intellectual when the intellectual is cultivated and pursued in balance with the pursuit of spiritual knowledge and strength.
Awesome Dash 
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