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We have a PH lesson on praying yesterday. I did try to say something, but once again, they managed to get the “thee and thou” thing wrong.
Can we get something straight, “thou” in prayer and scripture does NOT indicate respect? “Thou” is an old form, which would have been used
to close relatives and close friends!!!A king, president, etc would never have been referred to as “thou”. Yet we had a quote from Dallin Oaks telling us the direct opposite!
Other European languages STILL differentiate between “thou” and “you”. “Thou” is always singular, but “you” could also be plural (cf “you all”, “youse” etc). Look at how similar all the word for “thou” are!
* Spanish – Tu – Usted.
* Russian – ты (ty) вы (vy)
* German – Du – Sie
* French – Tu – Vous
* Irish – Tu – Sibh
Now in German and French, they actually have verbs – tutoyer and dusagen – for when you want to ask permission to call someone “thou”. And they can refuse. For only the closest relatives – parents/children/siblings – and closest of friends (usually the same age) use “thou”. Admittedly this is breaking down, but that’s a recent phenomenon.
All of these languages do this! It’s actually very rude to call someone “thou”, if you don’t know them well, it’s not “respectful”, it’s familial!
Jesus refers to Heavenly Father as “thou”, because he is his son. We refer to him as “thou” because we are his children (in our theology). We don’t refer to him as “thou” because he’s king/creator etc, but because we are his children…
Richard Nixon’s grandparents were Quakers, and used the Old Speech, i.e. they referred to everyone as “thou”. That’s because Quakers believe all mankind is equal, not because they wanted to exhibit respect…
I am amazed that a church which is fascinated by families can overlook the obvious here!
I agree completely Sam. If I’m ever in a conversation on the subject I’ll say something like “thee and thou are words that express an extra degree of closeness, they express our belief that we are literal children of God and that he is within our reach.” I also recognize that the words in our culture have evolved to represent a sort of respect for the Godly position, since we don’t typically use them in our everyday speech anymore. But you are completely right about the history of the words in the English language. God doesn’t even really speak English and Jesus didn’t call his father “thou”, he would have said something in Hebrew. All this worrying about what to call God in a bunch of languages we created ourselves. 
http://www.quaker.org/thee-thou.html Quote:To get straight to the point: Judging from the information received,
my source (see above) quite simply got it wrong. As many LINGUIST
subscribers pointed out, Quakers *retained* the ‘thee’ form in English
– at least amongst themselves. But rather than retaining ‘thee’ for
the sake of egalitarianism in society in general, there are reasons to
believe that the ‘thee’ form was one prominent way in which the
Quakers could mark themselves out as being somehow (linguistically)
distinct from their surrounding community. I am informed that ‘thee’
was retained with some success by the Quakers (well beyond the time
when it had virtually disappeared from English speech), though it
seems that amongst modern-day Quakers (in the US and UK, at least; I
have not heard from Australian/Canadian Quakers)the ‘thee’ form is now
becoming a rarity. We know for certain that the ‘thou/thee/thy’ forms
were disappearing from general English speech over 500 years ago, were
rare by 1650, and have today disappeared from American & most British
(English) dialects — with the important exception of some dialects of
Northern England (as a native of West Yorkshire, I have first-hand
knowledge of this). As far as I can gather, no sociolinguistic study
has been carried out on the present-day uses of ‘thee’ in Northern
English speech. [GAVIN O SHEA (
GOSHEA@acadamh.ucd.ie ) reminded me ofthe (still current and prevalent) use of ‘ye’ in southern and western
Ireland.]
Brown wrote:God doesn’t even really speak English and Jesus didn’t call his father “thou”, he would have said something in Hebrew. All this worrying about what to call God in a bunch of languages we created ourselves.
Sure, I appreciate that Brown, but the word translated as “thou” from Greek (and probably from Hebrew and Aramaic) has the same connotations as thou once had (hadst?!)
So Jesus actually DID say “thou”, more or less. And he called God “Abba”, which shocked many Jews. That translates as “papa” or “daddy”.
Or a sacchariney Swedish pop group.
The other quirky thing like this, at least in the U.S., is removing one’s hat before praying. It’s taken as a deeply disrespectful thing to pray with your hat on (by some people, a majority? IDK). In the root culture Christianity comes from, Judaism, you are supposed to cover your head before praying as a sign of respect. YOU PUT A HAT ON!!!!! Priests in the Catholic Church wear hats. Muslims wear hats. Jews wear hats. This is true of almost all other cultures. So why do we take off our cowboy and baseball hats to talk to God and Jesus? I always get blank stares when I bring this up, if not angry frowns, hehe.
I always chuckle a bit when I hear people try to use these words properly but end up saying “thy” when it should be “thou” – or something similar. I then repent and realize they are being sincere and doing the best they can – and, in the end, although I agree with the consternation, that’s all we can expect of ourselves and others. I always scratch my head when someone ends a testimony “In the name of thy Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, amen.” … as if the entire congregation had a beloved son. SamBee wrote:there are reasons to believe that the ‘thee’ form was one prominent way in which the Quakers could mark themselves out as being somehow (linguistically) distinct from their surrounding community.
Sam, I think this part you quoted is at the heart of the matter for LDS culture. We try to find ways to distinguish our actions from the world, as a mental exercise to think of the spiritual realm with a sacred tone.I know I certainly taught investigators or new members when I was on my mission that this was the proper language or speech for prayer. I don’t think I thought deeply about why, however. Do you think it helps draw reverence in prayers, or does it promote pride in trying to wax eloquent in a public setting?
Quote:Do you think it helps draw reverence in prayers, or does it promote pride in trying to wax eloquent in a public setting?
No, and no.
I think it’s a policy that is believed deeply by those who feel it is more reverential. I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.
Brian Johnston wrote:The other quirky thing like this, at least in the U.S., is removing one’s hat before praying. It’s taken as a deeply disrespectful thing to pray with your hat on (by some people, a majority? IDK).
In the root culture Christianity comes from, Judaism, you are supposed to cover your head before praying as a sign of respect. YOU PUT A HAT ON!!!!! Priests in the Catholic Church wear hats. Muslims wear hats. Jews wear hats. This is true of almost all other cultures. So why do we take off our cowboy and baseball hats to talk to God and Jesus? I always get blank stares when I bring this up, if not angry frowns, hehe.
Yes, and women are supposed to cover their hair in church. My mother’s church used to do that. Why not in the Restored Church?
It’s not just America, it’s pretty much all of Christendom.
Heber13 wrote:I always scratch my head when someone ends a testimony “In the name of thy Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, amen.” … as if the entire congregation had a beloved son.
Unlike “your”, “Thy” can only refer to one person, so I suppose unless we’re talking to each congregant individually, I don’t think it applies.
Still, I think it’s funny that most people in the church have the “thou/thee” thing the wrong way round. It represents familiarity not respect!
SamBee wrote:the word translated as “thou” from Greek (and probably from Hebrew and Aramaic) has the same connotations as thou once had (hadst?!)
I recently found out the word “symposium” is derived from a Greek word that means “drinking party.” I had to laugh; it gives new meaning to the phrase “beware of symposia.”
😆 Yeah, the word “climax” comes from the Greek for ladder… hmm… I think it’s an obstacle to spiritual growth, and thus is a false teaching, one of those philosophies of men mingled with the scriptures.
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