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Sam, This is interesting – I wasn’t previously aware of this.
Tom Haws wrote:I think it’s an obstacle to spiritual growth, and thus is a false teaching, one of those philosophies of men mingled with the scriptures.
I see your point, Tom. It’s like the garments not touching the floor – that was my focus – & I felt guilty every time I did laundry & it accidentally touched the floor. Ridiculous! It’s not about getting it right according to another’s standards, as it is – helping develop a spirit.However, using “Thou” as traditionally mistaught – may not necessarily be an obstacle… If it brings people closer to God by helping them focus on respect.
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It is not alwasy the words we use in prayer that count so much as the spirit in which they are said.” -Eldred G. Smith “The prayer of the heart is greater than the prayer of the lips.”– J.E. Talmage This goes for all of religion, IMO.
Religion is a tool for spiritual growth, not the end all.
Thanks Featherina, I’m under the impression most people aren’t aware of it. I agree with Tom that it may well be a false teaching… I think it is completely misunderstood. People think it is the complete opposite of what it is. So ironic given our emphasis on families too… SamBee wrote:Still, I think it’s funny that most people in the church have the “thou/thee” thing the wrong way round. It represents familiarity not respect!
It is ironic, huh Sam? Do you know if this wayward meaning of the terms was prevalent in the 1800 protestant congregations with use of the KJV? Do other churches have that same misunderstanding of the usage?
Heber13 wrote:Do other churches have that same misunderstanding of the usage?
Definitely. Certainly Anglicans, and probably other ones.
I’m resurrecting this thread, as thou has broghte the subjeckte up againe. Brian Johnston wrote:
The other quirky thing like this, at least in the U.S., is removing one’s hat before praying. It’s taken as a deeply disrespectful thing to pray with your hat on (by some people, a majority? IDK).In the root culture Christianity comes from, Judaism, you are supposed to cover your head before praying as a sign of respect. YOU PUT A HAT ON!!!!! Priests in the Catholic Church wear hats. Muslims wear hats. Jews wear hats. This is true of almost all other cultures. So why do we take off our cowboy and baseball hats to talk to God and Jesus? I always get blank stares when I bring this up, if not angry frowns, hehe.
We probably do it for the same reason we make sure the lid on the oil container is off when we consecrate oil. That way the lid doesn’t prevent the blessings from getting in. Wouldn’t want a hat blocking blessings from entering your noggin.
The less interesting reason (and without getting into a novel) is that it’s an old tradition rooted in etiquette that people held on to long after they forgot the reason why they were doing it. I remember being taught as a child to take off my hat when I went indoors. Go in a Walmart and forget to take off your hat? That’s a smack across the head, knocking the hat off in the process. “Show some respect boy!”
Heber13 wrote:
I always scratch my head when someone ends a testimony “In the name of thy Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, amen.” … as if the entire congregation had a beloved son.
This one I do think I have an answer to.
Featherina wrote:
I see your point, Tom. It’s like the garments not touching the floor – that was my focus – & I felt guilty every time I did laundry & it accidentally touched the floor. Ridiculous! It’s not about getting it right according to another’s standards, as it is – helping develop a spirit.However, using “Thou” as traditionally mistaught – may not necessarily be an obstacle… If it brings people closer to God by helping them focus on respect.
Recently we had a lesson on reverence and one of the points of instruction was to never let the hymn books touch the chapel floor. It was disrespectful. I’m still unclear as to whether the rule is better suited to help us show respect for god or whether the rule is more effective at giving people one more thing to chide each other over. Maybe policing reverence is a form of reverence?
On subject…
I’ve heard we use the intimate language, thee, thou, etc. in prayers and the like because we want to show that our relationship with god is at an intimate level… except I don’t talk to any of my best of friends in that language. I talk normal to them. I let my guard down with them, which sometimes includes some mild swearing. Perhaps I should start including some mild swearing in my prayers, show god that I’m keepin’ it real and that we’re buds.
These days I think it’s because it has morphed into a show of respect. Regardless of the origins the language has evolved such that the thees and thous are reserved for communicating with people that operate at a higher sphere. Then there’s the more simple, we read scripture, thee and thou is in scripture, monkey see, monkey do.
While thee and thou may have once indicated a more familiar usage, the truth is the way we use those words in prayers today is meant to indicate a higher level of reverence or respect. I think this is unfortunate, as it keeps God at a distance. Sure, it may help someone maintain a certain level of reverence, but I think it can be a hindrance to feeling a greater degree of intimacy with a Heavenly Father. Instead of calling him “Daddy” it’s like we’re calling him “Sir.” I think more intimate language would help us feel closer and more personal, which for me would be of more benefit than the other more formalistic approach.
For these reasons, I have anandoned such archaic language in my prayers. I understand the history of the intimacy these words once conveyed. But I want to actually feel the intended intimacy by using words that convey those feelings in my own vernacular.
nibbler wrote:
I always scratch my head when someone ends a testimony “In the name of thy Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, amen.” … as if the entire congregation had a beloved son.
Interesting tidbit. Most other Christian churches that I am familiar with do not end sermons, testimonies, or spiritual thoughts in the name of JC. It appears that this started popping up within the Mormons when a few speakers in GC would end their talk with a prayer. As in, “my prayer today is that all that can hear my voice would rededicate themselves to following the commandments” or perhaps an apostolic blessing given from the pulpit. Apparently it really started to catch on. Now we do everything in the name of JC and it is conspicuously absent when it is not used.
I’m not sure how it started either. Roy, but I certainly would like to see it end. I actually dislike it. I also dislike the obligatory “Good morning brothers and sisters” (or the occasional Aloha) often found at the beginning of talks. I’ve been making a concerted effort in my own talks not to start that way, but I’m not sure I would get away with the end part. How else does one end a talk? When the occasional non-member or long-time-inactive-who-was-never-really-active ends with something like “thank you” it always seems awkward. What I have done in lieu of bearing testimony and closing with “itnoJCa” I say something like “it is my prayer that (whatever the talk was about), inhoJCa. Interesting. I knew other churches didn’t end everything in the name of JC but I figured it was something that was done from early on in the LDS church. Stemming from scriptures like: Colossians 3:17 wrote:And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
But you don’t have to actually say out loud that you’re doing that. You can just think it, like how
most(but not all) adult characters in Harry Potter just do the spells without saying out loud “Stupefy.” Seriously guys, just point the wand and do the spell. But IMO the practice does fly in the face of the reason given for changing the name of the Melchizedek Priesthood. We changed the name to avoid the frequent repetition of the name JC (because people need to say MP that often?) but then we invoke the name right before we go to eat some doughnuts or talk about what we did on our vacation in a group setting?
I think the reason it was changed to the Mechizedek Priesthood has more to do with it being used often in an administrative context. For instance it is regularly used to refer to a category of priesthood holders. Prayers are only there in a worshipful sense and so the need to avoid repetition of Jesus’ name doesn’t apply. nibbler wrote:
I’ve heard we use the intimate language, thee, thou, etc. in prayers and the like because we want to show that our relationship with god is at an intimate level… except I don’t talk to any of my best of friends in that language. I talk normal to them. I let my guard down with them, which sometimes includes some mild swearing. Perhaps I should start including some mild swearing in my prayers, show god that I’m keepin’ it real and that we’re buds.That’s another quirk of modern culture, and especially modern English language. “Thee” and “Thou” sound formal, stuffy or honorific to us now. I grew up understanding those were terms of respect, not intimacy. The Germanic roots of those words go back to intimate versus formal modes of speech that still exist in other languages, but are no longer used in modern English. Our generic “You” pronoun is from the formal speech roots, and “thou” is the intimate or familiar used with close friends, peers or younger (less social status) persons.
Really, the only reason it still exists for Mormons is due to the LDS Church’s fundamentalist attachment to the old King James Bible, and that the Book of Mormon has ties to that specific translation for important theological truth claim support.
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