Thoughts about what truth is or isn’t

[Anonymous]

wjclerk wrote:

…There are people all over the world who believe God or gods or spirits or nature . . . based on their experiences. I often come back to one concept both in the New Testament and referred to in the Joseph Smith story:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 14:33…For God is not the author of confusion…

Joseph Smith History 1:10…Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

If there really is only one God, why would he allow or encourage so many divergent understandings of his “truth” to be appropriated and sometimes diametrically oppose some others’ faith traditions who are as SURE of “the truth” as the others are. This has never made sense to me. If there is a God, and he is indeed the source of TRUTH, and if he has sprinkled it throughout the world such that parts have been picked up in seemingly distressingly contradictory ways, how can this be evidence for God being the source of that truth?…God may not be the author of confusion, but I am confused.

I would interpret this as mostly meaning that we shouldn’t blame God for all the confusion that already exists in the world because this is just the way people are (easily confused and deceived) not that we should expect God to step in and clear up all confusion in a way that everyone is ever going to agree with. So why would God ever set things up this way or allow all this confusion? Maybe he didn’t want everything to be easy and obvious. Maybe he doesn’t think that it’s that important for everyone to believe the same thing and never make mistakes. Maybe God isn’t all-powerful and all-knowing to begin with. My point is that I don’t believe the only possible answer is that if God didn’t do things exactly the way I would have expected then that must suggest that God doesn’t exist.

[Anonymous]

almostgone wrote:

Maybe it’s the Mormon in me, but I have a difficult time understanding and believing that truth is subjective. I want what is true for me to be true for everyone. I hate the idea that God allows everyone to have their own personal truth or subjective truth. What sense does that even make? Why even have commandments? Everyone live how you want and it doesn’t matter in the end!

I understand the idea that we can’t technically all be right at the same time if we aren’t saying the same exact thing. In theory I agree and I definitely believe that objective truth exists but I just don’t believe that it is always as easy to discover and accurately understand as many people would like. Because people often have a limited amount of patience for real-life complexity and uncertainty they are likely to take it for granted that some simple explanation that already makes sense or sounds good to them is “the truth” when it really isn’t or is really at best a partial and limited explanation of the complete picture.

More importantly, it looks like being flat-out wrong is not always as bad and unacceptable as we think sometimes. The Church has basically raised the stakes of being wrong by attaching supposed consequences in this life and the next to strict obedience to prophets but personally I think this sense of urgency about accepting a long list of supposedly correct beliefs is imaginary as far as we really know for sure and the primary consequences we should actually be concerned with are the direct results we experience in this life. Anything that is basically nothing more than speculation and hearsay should be treated as such (taken down a notch in the level of seriousness and urgency) in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

almostgone, nobody here is saying everyone is right in doing whatever they want to do because there is no truth. I think everyone is saying there is objective, absolute truth (even very important, valuable, critical truth that all should understand) – but do you really want to be telling everyone else exactly what they have to believe and do?

Well said Ray – it is not that there is no absolute truth. It’s just that it is very difficult for us to perceive and understand that absolute truth. The LDS process of prophets that carry messages from God and then we get the confirmation of the spirit that the message is divine – works great for many people, but not for everybody. What if one’s understanding of how prophets receive revelation changes? What if it becomes a whole lot more ambiguous and hard to delineate what is “The Word of God,” what is inspired counsel, and what is just opinion? What if one does not ever get the confirmation of the spirit despite earnest searching? What if one receives confirmation from the spirit that they are called to another church?

I would have no problem giving unquestioned allegiance to ministering angels that travel back and forth from heaven carrying instructions like the angels on Jacob’s ladder from the Old Testament. Living in ambiguity is not so fun that I would chose it if another opportunity presented itself. But we don’t have angels. We have limited and fallible men that are overwhelmingly good men doing the best they can to lead this church. They may also receive assistance, in undetermined frequency, from God in their efforts – but even then it is filtered through their own limited minds and hearts and comes out less than perfect.

So I am left with not being able to abdicate my responsibility to think and ponder and own my beliefs and my actions. I cannot say at the judgment bar that I was just following orders from people that I took for representatives of God. I use my own mind and heart to the best of my ability to feel my way forward in the darkness. I take counsel from wise and godly sources and filter it with my understanding, I try to hold on to that which is good. I know that I will err and that my truth will always be only a shadow or approximation of ultimate truth. I sincerely make an effort to not hurt others with my limited understanding but in this too, I fail. I believe in a Saving Father God that will give me credit for my forward strides and not focus on my backsliding or on how far I have yet to go. Is this not part of LDS theology?

wjclerk wrote:

If there really is only one God, why would he allow or encourage so many divergent understandings of his “truth” to be appropriated and sometimes diametrically oppose some others’ faith traditions who are as SURE of “the truth” as the others are. This has never made sense to me. If there is a God, and he is indeed the source of TRUTH, and if he has sprinkled it throughout the world such that parts have been picked up in seemingly distressingly contradictory ways, how can this be evidence for God being the source of that truth? Our experiences with him? What of those of us who do not have experiences with him? Who cry out “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Very good questions, Wjclerk. I have had a few personal experiences with the divine that give me enough room to believe in something out there that knows and loves me. I call that “something” God. I call “Him” Father.

There are theories as to why this world is so chaotic. One that I use as a framework (probably because of the comfort level of my LDS upbringing) is the competing factors of free agency, justice, mercy, and opposition in all things. Perhaps we find ourselves on a chess board with no memories and no clear game rules to see what we will do. Not as a test but because, these are the best conditions for growth into fuller versions of ourselves.

I also fully understand that my experiences are subjective and may not mean at all what I have chosen to believe them to be. I recognize that others based on their very different life experiences will come to different and still very valid and authentic conclusions. I believe that the “God” that I believe in also knows you. He knows where you have been, where you are, and how you got there.

To summarize: Even if we (very understandably given our specific life experiences) do not believe in “God” – I believe that “He” still believes in us.

DA appears to have been posting at the same time as me but he also had some good points. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

My own feelings about truth aren’t as sophisticated as others posted here, and maybe not as helpful, but there are some things that can be scientifically proven as true. Once you start mixing in human perception it gets messy really quickly.

The old saying “perception is reality” might apply to this discussion. If you perceive something as true then it’s true for you. I don’t agree with the statement 100% but there’s some validity to it. If I perceive something a certain way, and if I act like it’s true and convince myself it’s true, then it’s true for me.

[Anonymous]

In the Council in Heaven that Lucifer offered to force all inhabitants of earth to be obedient, the Lord instead chose to send them to earth with a veil of forgetfulness, so that we would be free to make our own choices unhampered with the overwhelming influence of God almighty.

God said we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; (Abraham 3:25)

I understand from that, that God intends for us to choose for ourselves what values, principles and commandments we intend to follow. As much as many people don’t recognize they have choices, nearly anyone who lives much past childhood makes many significant choices, even if exposed to some very extreme conditions.

The book, “Will to Meaning” by Victor Frankl is illustrative. He was a Jewish neurologist and psychiatrist who spent several years in a Nazi concentration camp. He observed the choices of many prisoners were highly divergent. Some became as cruel and coercive as the guards, even to the extent of developing unholy alliances with them and to the detriment of other prisoners. On the other extreme were those who despite their oppression, still demonstrated compassion and caring for others, and a strong sense of themselves. While they cared for other prisoners, they did not become overwrought with anger and bitterness at their oppressors. Instead they found purpose in their life even in such extreme circumstances. His book cites these observations as a basis for the belief that pleasure and power are not the most important motivators. Instead, he argues that it is the striving to find a meaning in one’s life that is the primary, most powerful motivating and driving force in human.

Similar to the Jewish concentration camps are accounts coming out of Africa of war lords who kidnap kids and force them into drug addiction and forcing them into fighting in their front lines. Yet some of these kids escaped at the first opportunity and began an intensive rehabilitation effort on themselves.

While many Mormon TBM’ers believe obedience is the greatest law of the gospel, Christ said Love is the greatest commandment. The Church also teaches that regardless of whether a person has ever accepted or even heard of Christ in mortality, that everyone will have that opportunity before the final judgment. This is why we do temple work for ALL our ancestors, regardless of their mortal deeds and misdeeds.

(On a personal note, my wife, who was molested as an infant by her grandmother, said that when she did the temple work for that grandmother, she felt a strong presence of that grandmother while doing the endowment. The horrendous act apparently was forgiven by God, and my wife felt an obligation to likewise forgive her, even though she still suffers from the residual emotional scars. )

The Mormon freedom to choose is most eloquently expressed in our Hymnal in the song, “Know Then That Every Soul Is Free” Hymn 240.

1 Know then that ev’ry soul is free,

To choose his life and what he’ll be;

For this eternal truth is given,

That God will force no man to heaven

2 He’ll call, persuade direct him right;,

Bless him with wisdom, love, and light;

In nameless ways be good and kind;

But never force the human mind.

3 Freedom and reason make us men:

Take these away, what are we then?

Mere animals, and just as well,

The beasts may think of heaven or hell.

President Lorenzo Snow who said that the founders of the USA appeared to him in a vision to have him do their temple work. As a result he saw to it the temple work was done for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, all Presidents of the US, and other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others totaling 100 people.

During mortality, the these 100 people had no understanding of the finer points of doctrine as espoused by the Mormon Church. Yet they received the highest ordinances the Church can offer. The Church goes to great length to emphasize the importance of us to do temple work for ALL our ancestors, regardless of their deeds and misdeeds in mortality.

IMO mind, this all suggests that all mankind will be rewarded to the highest degree possible, and that is to each individuals loftiest (strongest?) desires. If someone really loves and serves others, like Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, George Washington, Abe Lincoln are saved and exalted, I am confident that millions of other good souls who aren’t so famous will be richly rewarded. (And the reprobates like Hitler, Islamic (and Christian) terrorists, drug lords, and other scoundrels will inherit their just deserts.)

The rest of us lie somewhere between the extremes of saints and devils. I believe any Baptist, Catholic, Quaker, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindi, Agnostic, or even Atheist, who serves his fellowmen with love and compassion will do well at the final judgment, regardless of their religious affiliation or doctrinal purity.

The Church gives us is a very structured way to have those important experiences and opportunities. Most people need encouragement to do the right thing consistently. So organized religion can be very helpful.

Christ said, “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt 25:40.) Many people die without learning of religious correctness in mortality (a’la Mormonism), yet through their service to their fellow men, they ”fulfilled the measure of their creation.” A crash course in Spirit Prison and temple work for the “dead” will correct errors and omissions for noble spirits. They, like George Washington, qualify as an instant Mormon.

So is there a single definition of truth?

IMO yes and no. I believe the LDS church comes closer in doctrine, ordinances and authority to a pure understanding of the pure gospel. We should learn to be compassionate, humble, teachable, love to do good, and learn to stand up for right in mortality. It will be far harder when we are in God’s presence to develop our own backbone.

But membership in the Church, alone, won’t buy us much. Membership in the one and only true Church doesn’t save us by itself. And neither does a temple recommend guarantee anything. I remember a fireside with a Q-70, who was asked who was going to hell. With a wry smile, he answered his own question: “murderers, adulterers, and a lot of surprised Mormons.

But what seems more important is whether we are teachable or not. While the Church was restored together with its saving ordinances, we cannot assume that membership in the “one and only will save us” by itself. We can’t simply live our religion by the numbers, going through the motions to look good.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

But membership in the Church, alone, won’t buy us much. Membership in the one and only true Church doesn’t save us by itself. And neither does a temple recommend guarantee anything. I remember a fireside with a Q-70, who was asked who was going to hell. With a wry smile, he answered his own question: “murderers, adulterers, and a lot of surprised Mormons.

I like this statement a lot. I also take it one step further….many times we are told (and the BoM teaches) that our “having the true church” will be held against us at the end unless we tow the line. I have always thought “Geez…so because I was baptized now I don’t get the chances to screw up? Seems a huge disadvantage not to mention a loss of free agency and opportunity to learn by experience”

I think the surprised hell0bound (ok…not sure I believe in hell the location) mormons are the ones who think that they are all good because they can check off all the boxes onthe TR interview….I think there will be a whole bunch more surprised that Gods mercy applies to them and they are not as bad as they have been told they are.

[Anonymous]

dash1730 wrote:

Christ said, “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt 25:40.) Many people die without learning of religious correctness in mortality (a’la Mormonism), yet through their service to their fellow men, they ”fulfilled the measure of their creation.” A crash course in Spirit Prison and temple work for the “dead” will correct errors and omissions for noble spirits. They, like George Washington, qualify as an instant Mormon. ….But what seems more important is whether we are teachable or not.

I wonder if this is the crux of it.

We expect others to be able to abandon their own false traditions in a moment once they arrive at the spirit world. Even if the LDS church were the closest to the truth there is much that is manmade. Take for example the Priesthood ban and its attendant justification that have now been essentially downgraded to former policy and historical relic. Can an LDS person that lived and died during the ban, when he comes to the other side and finds exalted beings of African Lineage, can this person be so offended, so insistent, and so belligerent that they are essentially damning themselves by their outright refusal to partake of further light and knowledge?

Can an LDS person hypothetically continue to hold so tightly to temple ordinances that they miss the mark? Suppose a person was taught in the spirit world that temple sealings were a beautiful metaphor for the whole of the human family being saved together (communal salvation). Can that person refuse this new information and hold instead to their traditions?

I believe that such stubborn individuals would not be damned. I believe that God will continue to work with all to coax and prod them to slowly (millimeter by millimeter) turn their faces towards the light (Even if it takes forever). But my point is that those individuals that may be most handicapped in this process are not those that have made the most mistakes up to that point, nor even those who may make additional mistakes in the hereafter (if such a thing is possible). Those that are most disadvantaged in this system are those that are saddled with certainty. They need no more truth because they already have truth and are therefore limited in their ability to progress.

johnh wrote:

I think the surprised hell0bound (ok…not sure I believe in hell the location) mormons are the ones who think that they are all good because they can check off all the boxes onthe TR interview

[Anonymous]

I think that God is much more patient with all of us than we tend to think – and I think He has all eternity to be patient with us.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I think that God is much more patient with all of us than we tend to think – and I think He has all eternity to be patient with us.

Well said ….and thats what keeps me sane….now I can work on loving/forgiving others as much as I want them to love/forgive me…even when the won’t love/forgive me …thats my weakness…loving those jerks 👿

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