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One thing I’m trying to sort out in my mind are the negative and positive aspects of the LDS church as an institution as it exists today. Most places you will get a very polemic answer to this – one one hand you have the cliche “The church is perfect, it’s just the people who aren’t” to the anti-Mormon it’s “an evil cult that is out to destroy you.” I believe the truth is somewhere in between. This forum seems like a place that may have people interested in trying to be objective or at least as accurate as possible in answering this question so I am interested in your thoughts.
Here are some of my initial thoughts on the subject:
GoodIt provides a good social structure. There are many opportunities for a good social interaction with other people trying to live a good life. Programs like home teaching and visiting teaching often facilitate deep life-long friendships.
- A good place to pass along morals and values.
- Help avoiding some major pitfalls in life. For example knowing my compulsive personality, without the church I fear I would be an alcoholic and/or addicting to smoking. Likewise, drug abuse may have been a risk for me.
- An emphasis on many Christian values such as love, kindness, etc.
- Many opportunities for service. A ward often rallies around someone in need.
- A lot of structure and programs in place to emphasize the family. For example we often hear recommendations to go on a weekly date with our spouse, to spend quality, meaningful time with children, etc.
- Leadership & other callings often allow of personal guilt.
- A good youth program allowing teenagers a good way to mature to responsible adults.
- The doctrine that there is time between now and judgement to “sort things out”.
- The scriptures, lessons, etc. have a lot of good ideas that can be applied to living a more fulfilling, altruistic life.
BadExclusion of family members from weddings. The whole idea of worthiness to be allowed to attend the temple instead of everyone welcome.
- The pattern of repentance/confession can often lead to serious damage of self-esteem when someone has a recurring issue – the doctrine that if you sin again all previous sins come back makes someone dealing with addiction or other compulsive sin feel they are destined for hell and nothing they do to attempt to improve has meaning.
- Semi-public shaming for things that should be fully private – For example not being allowed to take the sacrament for certain sins.
- Heavy burden placed on families of lay clergy such as bishops, scout masters & relief society presidents.
- Overly heavy-handed punishment for minor, arguably normal even healthy sexual infractions such as masturbation.
- Local leaders given “God-like” authority. Local priesthood leaders, etc. are essentially seen as representing Christ. Sometimes these leaders are not good people and abuse these positions of authority. Members are trained to “not speak evil of the Lord’s anointed” even if the said leader is harming others. One example is the idea that you should never refuse a calling regardless of how problematic it is for you.
- Too much “should”. The list of what a good Mormon should do is so huge and overwhelming. Even if you are active and work hard you are still made to feel guilty over not doing enough – something like journal writing,
- Too much emphasis on appearance.
- Those who don’t fit the mold feel out of place.
- A sense of superiority of being the only ones with the real truth. Sometimes an inclination to bypass normal social boundaries.
I’m interested in hearing your thoughts and ideas.
IMO my worst fear is that my children could become the ubber, seminary, missionary, institute, temple marrage, come hell or high water mormon that dives in hook line and sinker just to one day learn that they have only been taught the “useful truths of mormon doctrine and history” and go through what I have, risking marrage, family, friends etc. My worst fear is that my children not learn to think for themselves – that they remain children of God and never evolve into godly adults. That, however, is not the Church’s responsibility; it’s mine and my wife’s.I refuse to give the Church that responsibility, since they are our children. I have no problem with this type of list, especially in the beginning of a faith crisis – since I believe in discovering the essence of one’s own faith and in the establishment of acceptable minimums (lines beyond which each individual simply cannot go). However, I urge caution that these types of lists not be calcified into eternal creeds, if you will.
There are lots of things I would like to see changed within the LDS Church, but there are lots of things that still stun me and keep me in awe. I believe that there really must needs be opposition in all things, so, frankly, the existence of “bad things” doesn’t upset me. It’s the specifics of some of those bad things that bother me, and so I try to address and soften them within my own sphere of influence. However, I only an do so if I’m not seen as a threat to everyone within that sphere – which requires me to serve actively and lovingly and passionately – to be engaged – to be orthoprax (act like a Mormon – and I don’t mean put on an act when I say that) – be an active part of the community and serve it – etc.
Bc_pg, I cannot argue with your list, because I believe both lists are opinions, and everyone is welcome to their opinions based on experiencs in the church.
But I couldn’t say the lists are facts, or creeds. No church manual says to publicly shame individuals, for example. That is just how some feel, and that is valid, but it is not how everyone feels, or how the church intends members to feel.
I would also say my children go to school, and their experiencs are similar to the lists you make about the church. That does not mean schools are false and I don’t want them ever attending a school again. It just means there are better ways for some organizations to run, and there is variation from org to org on how they do it. There is a LOT of variation from ward to ward n the church. But mostly, there is a purpose to go, despite the shortcomings.
Those are my thoughts.
Cheers!
Heber, Thanks for your response.
I should clarify the shaming – and my example is a bit personal. The concern I have is with things like not being allowed to take the sacrament and attend the temple.
I currently have a deacon aged son who is not allowed to pass or take the sacrament right now. He is uber-active and believes with all his heart but has had some of the experiences that many normal 13 year old boys have. So the concern I have with the repentance process as defined by the church is that it requires he has to skip passing the sacrament and taking the sacrament. (Or at least the bishop’s interpretation of those policies.)
To me this equates to public shaming. Everyone in his peer group knows he’s done something wrong so he can’t pass the sacrament. Also he has to skip the sacrament while his brothers & sisters see him do it – along with anyone sitting nearby who happens to notice. I recognize that perhaps not anyone will notice, but it still feels like a giants spotlight is glaring down on him as he has to pass the tray by without participating.
This is made worse because he was allowed to partake & pass for a time after not being allowed. Then had another slip and is back to not being allowed. So his private struggle is in essence being made quite public – especially among his peers and siblings. I am very concerned that over time this will have a significant negative impact on his self-esteem especially if this continues – frankly in my mind it is bordering on abusive. Granted he could choose not to say anything (if he could be more clever to not get caught by his mom that would help too) but he is taught that to not say anything means he is heading towards hell – equally hard on a self-esteem.
Likewise someone who is not temple worthy doesn’t get to attend a child’s wedding. They either have to boycott it or endure the shame of sitting outside on the temple grounds. As you know, this lack of worthiness can be something as simple as drinking coffee or not believing the church president is literally a prophet. I haven’t had this experience yet personally, but have read accounts of people in this situation and shame is definitely a strong emotion they experience.
So my concern is not so much that people do things to cause the shame as much as the policies of the church cause it. My son’s example is a good one – I can understand the idea of a private confession to a clergy for some sins (although I disagree on some of what is considered “serious”) – however the policy of the punishment required for repentance being public is what I see as destructive.
Fortunately some things have improved. As I understand in the past it was fairly common for the name of someone being disfellowshipped or otherwise to have their name read over the pulpit – fortunately that policy has changed.
Hopefully that clarifies why I think it is a deeper issue than just people being people.
bc_pg wrote:I currently have a deacon aged son who is not allowed to pass or take the sacrament right now. He is uber-active and believes with all his heart but has had some of the experiences that many normal 13 year old boys have. So the concern I have with the repentance process as defined by the church is that it requires he has to skip passing the sacrament and taking the sacrament. (Or at least the bishop’s interpretation of those policies.)
To me this equates to public shaming. Everyone in his peer group knows he’s done something wrong so he can’t pass the sacrament. Also he has to skip the sacrament while his brothers & sisters see him do it – along with anyone sitting nearby who happens to notice. I recognize that perhaps not anyone will notice, but it still feels like a giants spotlight is glaring down on him as he has to pass the tray by without participating.
This is made worse because he was allowed to partake & pass for a time after not being allowed. Then had another slip and is back to not being allowed. So his private struggle is in essence being made quite public – especially among his peers and siblings. I am very concerned that over time this will have a significant negative impact on his self-esteem especially if this continues – frankly in my mind it is bordering on abusive.
you should be concerned about this. it already has had a significant impact on his self esteem, and it is abuse. forget about “over time” and “bordering”. your son is being manipulated by guilt over not being “worthy”, and is being emotionally trained to view himself as not having worth. the impact is life-long and must be addressed now.i have spent forty plus years undoing this kind of damage. Please, for the sake of your son, stop this abuse, and help your son understand that his explorations into his nature are good and natural for a teen boy.
i also would not allow the bishop or any leader to conduct one on one private interviews about sexuality. you should be there with him, and he needs to know and say that talking about sexuality in a private adult-child setting is not appropriate and that his parent must be there. I believe, strongly, that the private interview setting of an adult with authority over a young teen is de facto abuse and is against most modern policies in BSA, schools, and non-LDS youth programs.
i never want to teach my children to lie, but I believe I have a responsibility to teach them to protect themselves emotionally. there are extreme behaviors in sexuality, for example: obsessive viewing of porn and obsessive masturbation can be degrading and a waste of a lot of time. however, obsessively avoiding such things and fearing anything like unto them is not only degrading, it often leads to the opposite of the intended behavior. as parents we must teach balance. the goal should be to “have no problem with porn” or “have no problem with masturbation”, rather than to require obsessive avoidance. once porn and masturbation are demystified, then they tend to lose their allure.
i wonder if it would be better for your son to say, next time this comes up, “my parents and i have discussed this, they’ve really helped me work through this, and i am no longer afflicted with it.” and, you should be there in any interview. questions like “when is the last time you have xxxx’ed” should be stopped as indulging in inappropriate curiousity. i would hope that a child might say if pressed, “I have already explained that I have worked this out with my parents (and therapist/counselor if applicable) and I am no longer afflicted with it. your bringing this up over and over again is not part of my healing process. It makes me uncomfortable when you do this.” If a bishop persists after this point or retaliates by withholding a positive outcome, he has entered the realm of bona-fide abuse.
i know what i am suggesting seems impractical, but i feel we must go to any length to protect our children from the manipulative abuse “worthiness” interviews do to them. oh that it were otherwise! oh that we might have bishops, and there are some out there, that minister to those who confess masturbation and other “sins” that god loves them, and would see the “sin” of masturbation as a symptom of not embracing god’s infinite love. if i only had a bishop in those tender years who said, “neither do i condemn thee, go and ‘sin’ no more”, i feel that years of feeling that every bad thing that happens in my life was because i was unworthy of god’s love and protection. and being worthless, i might as well keep sinning because even that temporary happiness is all i deserve. self image informs and motivates our behavior: if we think we are worthless, then doing worthless things is part of our self-perceived nature.
i found out, recently, that my grandfather was a foundling: not an orphan, but rather, he was left at a foundling home when six years old. according to the very brief induction log at the home, his father was unknown and his “mother worthless”. to this day, the handwritten words “mother worthless” burn into my mind and pierce my heart with profound sorrow.
no one is worthless. we are not calvinists, who believe that mankind is totally depraved. “we are gods and all of us are chikdren of the most high, but we shall die as men…” (psalm 82). we have a divine nature, sons and daughters of god who loves us infinitely and unconditionally. partaking of the sacrament, for the believer, is “deed for word, that I remember him, the Lord”. grace saves. grace motivates a change in life from obsession to freedom. grace is present in the emblems ot the sacrament — the communion with christ. grace is what heals us. to require that a young boy withhold from receiving the grace of christ as symbolized in the sacrament is to deny necessary healing. it is wrong to do so.
there is a balm in gilead, to make the wounded whole,
there is a balm in gilead, to heal the sin-sick soul.
why would anyone withhold healing balm from the wounded or sick soul?
wayfarer, I completely agree with what you’ve said. As a father, I want to know (1st hand) that what church leadership are saying in private to my child is
consistant with my teachings at home. I’m surprised that any Bishop would think it’s a good idea to be
alone with a child. No matter how innocent the situation may be.
Mike from Milton.
I’m not even so concerned that what my children hear at chruch and from leaders is totally consistent with what I teach them, looking back I wish I could point to more differences of opinion around church teachings in my youth. I think that would have helped me gain the valuable understanding that not all people see all gospel topics in the same light. My blanket response for “negatives” that the church may produce is imperfect humans apply imperfect understandings in imperfect ways. Personally I think there are faithful ways to address many of these issues if we are persistent and patient. We are also obviously free as parents to influence our children in the best ways that we know – and hopefully can mitigate some of the “damage.”
Life isn’t perfect, people are not perfect, the church isn’t perfect. I honestly believe it is getting better over time, and I value the good enough to stay actively involved.
As I continue to spiral further and further out of the church, I’m able to see just how much of a crutch I used it to raise kids. Not good or bad….just is. Now that I recognize it and give myself permission to raise kids without it, I realize things will be just fine. Yes, we have to work harder now, personally at home with our kids because the crutch is gone…but, it just feels so much more peaceful.
The good in the church helped me get to where I am. I appreciate it, recognize it, and now I move on before the bad destroys me.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
No orson, regardless of what many members like to say, the church is not perfect. But for the most part the people are pretty decent and good. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks for all your thoughts and comments. The challenge with my son is that he thinks he wants/needs to go talk to the bishop about this. I’ve discussed my concerns with my wife but she just doesn’t quite “get it”. I agree on the minor not alone with the bishop and have been doing that. My son and wife’s reasoning is In line with the whole “Miracle of Forgiveness” line of reasoning that just see it as necessary so that he can be worthy to get to heaven. My concern with this is that it goes beyond just people being imperfect while the church is perfect – it’s a church policy that I believe is harmful and detrimental. I feel the church should be welcoming and loving not punitive.
To my wife’s credit she has never tromped my son off to the bishop. She has made it his decision of whether he wants to go confess or not. I’m in a bit of a weird spot. My son believes strongly in the gospel and doesn’t really want to hear about the issues/concerns that I have with it. So I can’t really take the approach of telling him to “white lie” to the bishop when he thinks confession is what he is supposed to do. I also don’t want to be shove my beliefs down his throat – I also don’t want him to feel even worse about the situation being caught between he and my wife on our beliefs. So I just try to make sure he knows that I think he is a great kid and that I don’t think there is anything wrong with him for having these interests and that I respect him for having the determination to do his best on it. Over time I’m going to try to help him understand that every day he is successful is a victory and the other days aren’t failures and don’t make him a failure or a bad person. It’s a tricky spot.
So today we played catch.
One of the hardest but most important things a parent can do for a child is to let them make important decisions – and, in doing so, let them succeed AND fail in the process. It’s the only way they will learn to be independent adults eventually. That doesn’t give you a specific answer, but it’s a good principle to teach and then let him govern himself.
Quote:•The pattern of repentance/confession can often lead to serious damage of self-esteem when someone has a recurring issue – the doctrine that if you sin again all previous sins come back makes someone dealing with addiction or other compulsive sin feel they are destined for hell and nothing they do to attempt to improve has meaning.
Bear in mind the Addiction Recovery Program. I know a few people who’ve been in it. It’s a very good twelve step program based on Alcoholics Anonymous, and I believe that it shows a changing attitude in the church towards “recurring issues”. Their manual is also written by recovering addicts.
The link also includes a meeting locator by the way, for anyone on here who wants that. Rod’s video is also quite moving.
I have quite a bit of experience with the addiction recovery program. Overall it was a very good experience – other than them calling things aren’t addictions, addictions. I definitely learned a bit outlook and approach to life through the program. Even anyone is interesting in know more about it ask I and I can give you first hand information. It is not available to minors so my son can’t go. I have offered the workbook to him but he doesn’t want it at this point – the biggest issue is he would be horrified if he siblings saw him with it.
SamBee wrote:Quote:•The pattern of repentance/confession can often lead to serious damage of self-esteem when someone has a recurring issue – the doctrine that if you sin again all previous sins come back makes someone dealing with addiction or other compulsive sin feel they are destined for hell and nothing they do to attempt to improve has meaning.
I have lots of feelings on this subject and can agree with some of what is being said here. There is no doubt that LDS culture produces perfectionism, all or nothing thinking, and certainly shame. We don’t know how to deal with the opposition that is inherently inside of each of us. But we don’t have a corner on that market. I’m pretty sure the who judeo-christian tradition was generating all this long before Joseph and the plates. In any case, mormons tend to struggle with this kind of thinking. We think its righteousness and obedient and it certainly makes us feel “right” when we think this way. But, I think this kind of thinking means we are really misunderstanding the doctrine. Too often in the church, we judge instead of discern. And when we judge…others or self…we stop loving. And when we do that, we do a lot of damage.
In any case, I agree that this poses particular problems for those struggling with addictions and compulsive sexual issues. Too often people get freaked by sexual problems either cuz they feel shame or it triggers their own issues. But I have to say that addiction, by its very nature, produces a whole host of thought distortions, self hatred, and shame all by itself. Even the best sentiment and support by an LDS leader could be distorted by someone who is stuck in an addictive cycle. So, the addicts have to take some of the responsibility here.
And its pretty sad when we let others judgments of us blind us to our own power and our own ability to find meaning in struggle. If one is listening to the spirit…or the universe…or the self voice within, there are always more gentle, loving options available. But, it takes courage to leave the shame dogma and think in behalf of oneself. It’s easier to blame the leaders, or the church people, or our evil selves than to embrace the lessens of love and personal responsibility.
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