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But I have to say that addiction, by its very nature, produces a whole host of thought distortions, self hatred, and shame all by itself. Even the best sentiment and support by an LDS leader could be distorted by someone who is stuck in an addictive cycle. So, the addicts have to take some of the responsibility here.
And its pretty sad when we let others judgments of us blind us to our own power and our own ability to find meaning in struggle. If one is listening to the spirit…or the universe…or the self voice within, there are always more gentle, loving options available. But, it takes courage to leave the shame dogma and think in behalf of oneself. It’s easier to blame the leaders, or the church people, or our evil selves than to embrace the lessens of love and personal responsibility.
This is an excellent comment – well said and thought out. From what I’ve seen the church’s addiction recovery program and how it is typically handled in a ward are polar opposites. The addiction recovery program facilitates the addict doing what you are saying above while a judge in Israel often just adds to the problem by being punitive and adding guilt and shame.
After writing this I realize it is long, but this is a hot button issue for me. I’m sorry, but I find this very worrisome. A 13 year old boy should not have to be stressed out and worried about masturbation and the occasional use of pornography. I grew up thinking I had a one way ticket to hell because I had committed a sin next to murder. You can imagine how extremely detrimental this was to my mental health.
We have two young boys and I’ve spoken with my wife about my concerns about the churches views on sexuality. Despite her being very liberal and understanding I think she still doesn’t quite get it. My guess is that your wife is going to have a difficult time truly understanding what a 13 year old boy is going through. I would plead with you to intervene. Unless your bishop is very, very understanding and kind and has a very liberal attitude (e.g. look we need to just slowly over time work on decreasing the frequency and it’s not a huge issues) I can guarantee you this is going to lead and likely already has led to serious self-esteem issues. This makes me so sad. Your son probably feels very alone. He likely thinks he is the only kid with this “problem.”
Having given my bit of advice, now I’m going to give my opinion and rant a bit.
I wish the church would realize and talk about the fact that this “sin” is really not that serious. The problem is that in public the church equates masturbation and porn to other sexual sin which then would lead many young men to the conclusion that it is next to murder. Imagine the hit to self-esteem that creates. Worst of all, who bears the brunt of it? The most believing and sensitive young men. It just breaks my heart. I was one of those kids. With hindsight I realize that this thinking that masturbation and porn are next to murder is silly. But, what is a child to believe when that is what they have been told, and they believe that the need to follow the prophet.
One other thing that is really scary to me is how idiosyncratic bishops’ thinking and actions are regarding these issues. I been a counselor to a bishop who has simply shrugged and said there are a lot worse things, and said taking the sacrament and attending the temple are much more important than whether or not one masturbates and looks at pornography. I think this is the healthy attitude. My opinion is that moderate masturbation and porn are more issues of self-control and as such are note that serious. I don’t think it is any different from controlling other appetites and passions (such as overeating or watching too much tv). Unfortunately, there are other bishops will deny blessing to people such as taking the sacrament and even some that will hold disciplinary councils for this type of behavior.
In my opinion, it is ridiculous that your son is not “allowed” to take the sacrament. I guarantee you that at least half of the other boys passing the sacrament are doing the same things as your son, but have not “confessed” to this bishop. The other 1/2 probably aren’t doing it because they haven’t hit puberty yet. The fact that a conversation about a 13 year old boy looking at some pornography and masturbating would include discussions of an addiction recovery program just shows me how warped our cultural thinking is on this issue. If your son is spending hours looking at pornography that’s on thing, but if it’s a relatively short event and does not affect the rest of his life the only problem is going to be his shattered self-esteem.
Quote:But I have to say that addiction, by its very nature, produces a whole host of thought distortions, self hatred, and shame all by itself. Even the best sentiment and support by an LDS leader could be distorted by someone who is stuck in an addictive cycle. So, the addicts have to take some of the responsibility here.
And its pretty sad when we let others judgments of us blind us to our own power and our own ability to find meaning in struggle. If one is listening to the spirit…or the universe…or the self voice within, there are always more gentle, loving options available. But, it takes courage to leave the shame dogma and think in behalf of oneself. It’s easier to blame the leaders, or the church people, or our evil selves than to embrace the lessens of love and personal responsibility.
I agree whole heartedly with this sentiment when it comes to adults. But we are taking about a 13 year old boy, who believes with all his heart that what his leaders say is the truth. Based on the statements that have been made publicly by leaders on this issue, what conclusion is a 13 year old boy to draw? Do leaders bare no responsibility?
bc_pg wrote:•A lot of structure and programs in place to emphasize the family. For example we often hear recommendations to go on a weekly date with our spouse, to spend quality, meaningful time with children, etc.
A thought occurred to me, that is related to this. I believe that LDS men are typically more family oriented than your average non-LDS man. For young women who are looking for a potential spouse to be a more engaged full partner in the child rearing process – I think this would be a plus.
This second thought is less well thought out but similar – I have heard anecdotal evidence to suggest that LDS women who are more plain looking have an easier time with relationships than they otherwise would have. This idea suggests that while society at large puts nearly all the emphasis on looks alone, the LDS culture highlights different criteria. Sometimes this difference may give YW that didn’t have the good fortune to be born as supermodels a better chance in the relationship department than they otherwise would have had.
crl21 wrote:I been a counselor to a bishop who has simply shrugged and said there are a lot worse things, and said taking the sacrament and attending the temple are much more important than whether or not one masturbates and looks at pornography. I think this is the healthy attitude….We have two young boys and I’ve spoken with my wife about my concerns about the churches views on sexuality. Despite her being very liberal and understanding I think she still doesn’t quite get it. My guess is that your wife is going to have a difficult time truly understanding what a 13 year old boy is going through.
DW and I have talked about what it is like for boys to go through puberty. I think that the statement that “guy’s are pigs” (while inaccurate and misleading in some ways) gets the general idea across to the female gender that guys in puberty think about sex often. I agree that the key for the young man is on developing self control, appetite suppression, patience, empathy, fight against the temptation to objectify women, to explore this new side of themselves without it overtaking the rest of their life, etc. Sex and sexuality is good and normal – but it doesn’t need to consume. It can be framed. These feelings and desires are normal and natural and are designed (IMO) to one day lead the young man into an eternal relationship with a choice young woman who will become his partner in all things. It is my understanding that I will be called upon to have these discussions with my son. I defer to my wife on issues of when is the right time to use a training bra and get pierced earrings for our daughter – I think it only natural that she defers to me on issues of male puberty.
bc_pg wrote:So today we played catch.
Tha’s good too.
:thumbup: A couple thoughts struck me from this interesting thread… 1) it is my responsibility as a father to teach my son how to process things in this life. That requires me to buffer him from other adults who might try to make him feel one way or another. I have been involved in many occasions telling others to back off and talk to me about concerns they have, not talk to my son about them. It is rather easy to find quotes from prophets and apostles that parents hold primary responsibility to teach and nurture children, and the church is the support to the family, not over-ruling the parents. Therefore, I always have this “family first” card in my wallet I can pull out and tell others to back off. I know my kids the best, love them the most, and will teach them and be held accountable for how I do it. I talk to my son about this subject, and help him know my views, but want him to choose what he thinks is right. I have supported my kids who have confessed to bishops, and have been there afterwards to console and pick up the pieces when it didn’t go well. I have at times required any leader, including the bishop, to have me present when talking to my kids about sex or immorality. They don’t like that, but they honor my requests.
I won’t keep going on, but my point is, I take the prophets seriously on their word that parents have the primary responsibility to raise and love their children. The church NEVER trumps the parents in these stewardships.
2). Having said all that (can you tell it has been a hot button for me in the past?
My focus is looking for the teaching opportunities that will help my kids grow up feeling good about themselves while being humble to always strive to be our best selves. But I’m imperfect at it. I try best I can.
crl21 said: Quote:The fact that a conversation about a 13 year old boy looking at some pornography and masturbating would include discussions of an addiction recovery program just shows me how warped our cultural thinking is on this issue. If your son is spending hours looking at pornography that’s on thing, but if it’s a relatively short event and does not affect the rest of his life the only problem is going to be his shattered self-esteem.
I completely agree.
If the Church says that this is an addiction problem & needs to be handled through that program, (IMO) they are completely wrong.
Actions like this will minimize the potential benefits of that program. Plus, have deep psycological impact with a child at 13 years old.
I’m curious if a professional mental heath worker thinks this is a good idea?Are there any on this forum?
As a side note: I see in the current issue of the Ensign on page 75, there is a: “Addiction Recovery Program Calls for Stories of Recover”.
They want members to share their personal stories. I know it’s important for people to understand that they are not alone when dealing with these problems.
The Church has to be walking a tight rope with this. What happens if a member comes out & talks about their specific addiction then relapses?
Mike from Milton.
Well, we’ve discussed the p-word on here before. I’ve also asked what it is exactly, because LDS definitions of it are broader. It’s easy to argue Basic Instinct is such, but ridiculous to argue that James Bond is, despite the sexual content. A lot of Hollywood films do border on it though. One of the biggest problems with P is that it can cost a lot of money if you do become seriously addicted. A late friend of mine was a book dealer and once went to buy a library. Only problem was that the entire library was P! Someone who collects that much is obviously spending serious money. From what I gather it wasn’t even arty.
(Sorry, I don’t like to spell out certain words in full, since they turn up in search engines.)
Lot’s of good comments. @Mike
The church policy is that you must be 18 to attend the addiction recovery program. However, with that said I would much rather have my son exposed to the addiction recovery program than the Mormon repentance process. My one concern with the addiction recovery program is that they over-label things as addictions. However with that caveat here’s a comparison of the two and why I would much rather him be involved in a 12 step program.
I attended the 12 step program for 2 1/2 years including around 1 1/2 years as a facilitator so I speak with some exposure to the program.
LDS Church:
– In line with Spencer Kimball’s, Miracle Forgiveness, repentance includes shame, guilt & pain. The atonement kicks in eventually but only after you have paid a price. (Not quite the neither do I condemn you, go thy way and sin no more approach.)
– As mentioned earlier it includes public shaming – e.g. not taking the sacrament – missing events in the temple.
– Most Elder’s Quorum, etc. meetings are typically people sitting around with their heads bowed, bored out of their minds with almost no one commenting. When comments are made their is rarely any real substance to them – just repeating of mantras and doctrines. The lessons are going over boring material over and over again.
– As mentioned in a recent thread – overemphasis on appearance – if you don’t wear a long sleeved white shirt it is assumed your spiritual health is in jeopardy.
– A lot of shame and guilt. A lot of hiding sins and being punished once a confession is made. Confessions are made to a judge of Israel one of whose purposes is to determine what the consequences should be. The level of harshness varies widely from bishop to bishop.
– The doctrine that if you repeat the sin that all previous repentance is invalid. All past sins in addition to the most recent need to be paid for over again. Creates a cycle of hopelessness and self-hatred.
12 step program
– This program is all about letting go of guilt and shame. You see other good, sincere people struggling with your same problems and you realize it doesn’t define you as a bad person. You learn specific approaches to let the guilt & shame go and to not hold on to it. It is an empowering approach to leave baggage behind.
– There is no shaming. It feels embarrassing to first go, but eventually you feel exactly the opposite of shame. You feel support and love. You feel you are a valid person despite your weaknesses. If you don’t want to talk or share you don’t have to – certainly everyone there assumes you have the same problem they do, but you talk about what you want to talk about
– Come wearing what you want. Appearance is the least of anyone’s concern
– People speak openly & deeply. People truly bare their souls in a very trusting way. We don’t know last names or much about each other, but their is a brotherhood much much deeper than anything I’ve ever seen in a quorum.
– No judgement by anyone. No one has any authority to judge. Cross talk is prohibited.
– Just one day free of your addiction or habit is considered a victory. The emphasis is on the progress made and resolving the underlying root issues. Acting out is considered getting off the freeway exit and just needing to get back on and keep moving. Progress and healing that has occurred is not lost. Sure it is disappointing, but all the support reinforces that you are good, valid, and of value despite any problems you have on your journey. Abstinence is seen as a symptom of true recovery – of making progress as a person to find healthy approaches to life.
For me personally my involvement in the 12 step program helped me overcome 20+ years of the church teaching me that I was horrible and me being ashamed. I would have no problem having my son be involved in a 12 step program. It’s his involvement with the LDS church’s repentance process and a especially nasty bishop that worries me.
@The several commenting on the damage to my son.
Yes, I understand this very personally. I went through the same thing as a teenager and had my self esteem completely eroded. (I also had a dad who was too busy with all of his church calling to have any kind of meaningful relationship with me.) I spent a lot of time as a teenager contemplating suicide. So yeah, I’m very with you on how serious this is.
@The comment about a “good” bishop
Unfortunately our bishop is one of the worst possible. He’s almost at 6 years so hopefully he will be released soon. The ward’s activity rate has dropped about about 20% in his tenure – he really is not a nice person – very hard working and devoted. As my super TBM wife has said “he’s very Old Testament”. As a guy in the ward who serves as a high councilor at BYU said – “If someone is on the fence – he’ll definitely knock them off – away.” The relief society president has said “I know he hates me – he just scowls at me in ward council.” I was EQP under him for nearly 2 years and sat in all the meetings with him – let’s just say judgement is his thing, charity is not. I will give him that he works hard, leaves people alone once they have said leave me alone (e.g. if someone asks not to be home taught he leaves them alone), and he is very good with confidentiality. The 15 minute lecture every Super Bowl Sunday at the beginning of priesthood opening exercises is always entertaining.
@Sambee – Your concern with using the words porn & pornography is amusing. Someone finding this site searching for that word might be a good thing.
bc_pg, my experience with the church recovery program is very limited. My experience with Alcoholism & AA have covered 20+ years.
All of it outside the traditional LDS experience. I did not attend any meetings during that time.
After about 10 years of recovery, I had enough strenght to go to my Bishop & have a talk with him.
I knew him as a good friend. We had been Stake Missionaries & 70’s together. We knew each others families & I liked him. I still do.
But, he didn’t know anything about addiction or recovery. My impression was, he had no experience or training to draw on.
At the end of our meeting he began to gossip about other members that we both knew over the years.
When I left to go home I wondered to myself, what is he going to say about me to other members of the ward?
As a result, I didn’t feel comfortable about attending church yet. I have only started to go on a regular basis within the past year.
There are addictions that are life threatening & very “hard core”. Plus, IMO they need to be treated differently than a “shopaholic”.
For a real Alcoholic or Drug addict, the spiritual side of recovery comes over time. For me, years.
My impression is, that the church recovery program begins & ends with the spiritual element (Jesus).
For someone new to recovery, that is the last thing you want to hear. There are steps that come before.
My hope & prayer is that the church has progressed over the past 10 years.
bc_pg, I wish the best for you & your family as you go through this challenge.
Raising children is not for sissies.
Mike from Milton.
Hey Mike, Good comments – and what you are saying I think is very in line with my thoughts. I also definitely agree with the distinction between a true addiction like alcoholism and as you say a shopaholic and I do agree that the over characterization of addiction is problematic. I believe you are correct that the church’s adaptation of the 12 step program would probably not sit well with someone not already pretty comfortable with the church. You comment about the bishop knowing almost nothing about addiction or recovery is spot on with my concerns.
crl21 wrote:Quote:But I have to say that addiction, by its very nature, produces a whole host of thought distortions, self hatred, and shame all by itself. Even the best sentiment and support by an LDS leader could be distorted by someone who is stuck in an addictive cycle. So, the addicts have to take some of the responsibility here.
And its pretty sad when we let others judgments of us blind us to our own power and our own ability to find meaning in struggle. If one is listening to the spirit…or the universe…or the self voice within, there are always more gentle, loving options available. But, it takes courage to leave the shame dogma and think in behalf of oneself. It’s easier to blame the leaders, or the church people, or our evil selves than to embrace the lessens of love and personal responsibility.
I agree whole heartedly with this sentiment when it comes to adults. But we are taking about a 13 year old boy, who believes with all his heart that what his leaders say is the truth. Based on the statements that have been made publicly by leaders on this issue, what conclusion is a 13 year old boy to draw? Do leaders bare no responsibility?
Thanks for that clarification. I was speaking exclusively about adults.
In regards to young boys (girls too), I think that very few people really understand sexuality. Certainly with young people, we’ve got lots more curiosity happening than anything. And the mental health profession, depending on who you read, concedes that there is still so much we don’t know about human sexuality. I think we know more about men. Women are still a mystery, even to ourselves sometimes. And I think sexuality scares us. And that fear makes us over-reactive. I think it’s this over-reactivity that you are reacting to.
😆 (forgive me. I couldn’t help myself.)When you ask the question “Do leaders bare no responsibility?”, I struggle to answer that definitively because each case/person is complex and different. I do think LDS leaders/people/parents throw around the word “addiction” like Dr.’s throw out prescriptions. It’s excessive and uninformed and irresponsible. And I do think it’s damaging because it’s these very overreactions that condition our children into fear and self loathing. As you stated so well. Hopefully I’m understanding better here.
I think the answer to this problem is a nice jumbo dose of compassion all the way around. Compassion for leaders who don’t know better either because of ignorance or fear. Compassion for our young boys who have to navigate high octane sexual development in their bodies (and culture) before their emotional maturity catches up. And compassion for parents who don’t know how to teach sexuality AND the law of chastity at the same time.
What IS comforting to me, is that I as a parent have the ability to influence my child MORE than bishops. ANd that is a very satsifying realization. If I stay plugged in and if I am careful about my reactions to things, I know I can help my children meet their budding sexual feelings with wisdom, patience, and sound principles grounded in the idea of bridling passions rather than shaming or suppressing them. I also can control any tendencies towards black and white thinking about questionable behaviors and teach my kids the difference between Godly sorrow and repentance, and shame based condemnation. And that means being compassionate with my own panic reactions.
NOW, having said all of this. I will say that there is more and more evidence regarding the addictive nature of pornography and the detrimental effects it has on the developing teen brain. I think its wise in our sexually bombarded culture to be conscious of how a counter-culture bias can confuse our own judgments of sexual behaviors. If all we are doing is reacting to the “tight” at the mormon church, then we are kinda blind. Perhaps this is my bias and people will argue, but I think porn IS the new heroin. And I’m fine if others dispute this. But for me and mine, I see no reason porn enhances the sexual development of children. There is a time and a place for adult sexual behavior to happen. And it isn’t at age 13.
We have one very active 12 stepper in our ward. He regularly mentions our own LDS recovery program in meetings, and in F&T. He’s a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, and makes no secret of it. He’s been running AA meetings in this city for a couple of decades. I think it is important that sexes are separated though, and the female PASG here runs separately. In our ward we have former heroin addicts, smokers, potheads, gambling addicts, recovering alcoholics, people with eating disorders… you name it. Gambling is often overlooked but it is a serious addiction, since the financial cost of it keeps going up. With drink and drugs, there is a physical dependency, but the monetary cost often hits a ceiling. Not so with gambling. I have heard some very sobering stories about gambling. However, there is a big difference between someone who buys one lottery ticket a week, and someone who is stealing his wife’s money for the horses/casino etc
Quote:IMO they need to be treated differently than a “shopaholic”
Shopping addiction can be a very serious problem particularly if it involves credit cards.
Sambee, I must admit that I have very little knowledge about the Church addiction program. Regarding my earlier comments, my intent was not to minimize someones addiction to shopping (shopaholic) or the personal effects it has on the individual or their family.
As I understand it, the Church seems to focus on the spiritual side of the recovery process with an emphasis on Jesus Christ & his power to forgive & redeem.
The points I want to make are:
1. From my own personal experience, the spiritual part of the recovery process is the hardest & comes after years of working the steps, going to meetings, reading & working with my
Sponsor & others I trust. If someone talked about God, being Spiritual or trusting in a Higher Power, I turned them off. It wasn’t that I didn’t believe in God. It was my belief at the time
that God didn’t believe in me. Other Alcoholics may have had a different experience than I have.
2. There is a real need in the early stages of recovery (Alcoholism) to be together & realize that you are not unique or alone. There are others that have gone through the process of recovery
and have come out the other side successfully. During our meetings there have been instances were other Alcoholics have had to talk with me in a very blunt & confrontational way.
I have a difficult time visualizing that in an LDS environment.
Having said all that, if the Church recovery program is an effort to bring all of the addictive members together & work on the spiritual side of recovery, than there maybe a benefit.
After reading my own post, I realize that I really don’t know very much about this program. Instead of being critical, maybe I should go to one of their meetings.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Mike from Milton.
From my experience in the LDS program in response to your two points: 1) At least in my experience most of those attending the meetings I attended were very active LDS members so the spiritual base was already there. So for the most part “spirituality” was a language those attending were very comfortable with.
2) Yes this is huge. I think this is an even bigger deal in the active LDS culture than in the general US population – an active LDS member perhaps feels even more isolated in their addiction that an average addict.
Quote:bc_pg: Likewise someone who is not temple worthy doesn’t get to attend a child’s wedding. They either have to boycott it or endure the shame of sitting outside on the temple grounds. As you know, this lack of worthiness can be something as simple as drinking coffee or not believing the church president is literally a prophet. I haven’t had this experience yet personally, but have read accounts of people in this situation and shame is definitely a strong emotion they experience.
I have been thinking about this recently. I think the solution is NOT to allow those without recommends to attend sealings – I think the solution is allow sealings to occur shortly after civil weddings! What would be wrong with a couple having a civil wedding with as much or as little grandeur as they want and then getting sealed the next day or even later on the same day? I am pretty sure this is how it used to be. I don’t have a source, but remember reading about a couple who got married in the 40s or 50s and then travelled to a temple a week or so later.(I changed “dealings” to “sealings” – thanks, wayfarer)
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