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I’m re-reading Lyman Bushman’s bio of Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling. It’s brought up many thoughs, but one of the most poignant for me is the powerful faithfulness of many of the early saints, and the complete ridiculousness of their situation. They had a young man of no educational, academic, or wordly merit as their leader. And he didn’t just say “I think we ought to ….” He said “Thus saith the Lord, you shall ….” He spoke in the voice of God as a prophet. We claim an unbroken line of succession in the prophetic mantle from JS to TSM today. But when was the last time a prophet and President of the Church spoke in the voice of God? Not just PR statements or even the Declaration on the Family. I mean when was the last time the Church had a prophet say “Listen up, this is the mind and will of the Lord, ….” TBMs all over the world wait with baited breath for General Conference to hear inspired words from the prophets, seers and revelators. When was the last time a member of the Big 15 stood up at conference and prophesied, “seered” or revealed anything? Maybe 1978?
All of the awesome prophets from the Old Testament, Peter and Paul, and the BoM prophets all spoke boldly, aggressively. I can’t think of the last time we’ve had a prophet like that. When’s the last time a prophet called the Church to repentance, chastised us for being slack, warned of God’s judgments, etc.?
*sigh*
Kumahito wrote:All of the awesome prophets from the Old Testament, Peter and Paul, and the BoM prophets all spoke boldly, aggressively. I can’t think of the last time we’ve had a prophet like that. When’s the last time a prophet called the Church to repentance, chastised us for being slack, warned of God’s judgments, etc.?
*sigh*
is that what you want? if so, i think the prophets call the church to repentance, chastise us for being slack, and warn of God’s judgments every conference. personally, i think that part gets old.my take on prophets of old is no different than prophets today. i dont think there is any difference whatsoever in paul’s style in his epistles than conference addresses or ensign articles of today.
Bruce R. McConkie was one of the to be bold, and has been crucified (posthumously) for it on the bloggernacle. Packer was bold in conference and had his talk edited. Thomas S. Monson has a Tendency to speak in metaphors, poetic anecdotes and often talks about his past self in the third person. Perhaps he has spoken in the voice of God but had it hidden away in his labyrinth of story telling. Just to consider: We have rejected most of the ancient “Thus saith the Lord” pronouncements of the Biblical prophets.
I tend to think those who want to be told that God is telling them find a way to see what is said as God telling them; those who don’t want to be told that God is telling them find a way to see what is said as God not telling them.
I think that’s true of our modern prophets, as well. They don’t use the phrase, “Thus saith the Lord” – but lots of people hear it in their words, while others don’t.
Didn’t Benson do this in both his Pride talk (arguably stolen from CSLewis) and his admonishment to read the BOM? Even so, I’m not a huge fan of pulpit pounding talks. Give me longsuffering and love unfeigned anyday! Kumahito wrote:…
Rough Stone Rolling…brought up many thoughs, but one of the most poignant for me is the powerful faithfulness of many of the early saints,…They had a young man of no educational, academic, or wordly merit as their leader. And he didn’t just say “I think we ought to ….” He said “Thus saith the Lord, you shall ….” He spoke in the voice of God as a prophet.We claim an unbroken line of succession in the prophetic mantle from JS to TSM today. But
when was the last time a prophet and President of the Church spoke in the voice of God?…When was the last time a member of the Big 15 stood up at conference and prophesied, “seered” or revealed anything? Maybe 1978?…All of the awesome prophets from the Old Testament, Peter and Paul, and the BoM prophets all spoke boldly, aggressively. I can’t think of the last time we’ve had a prophet like that.My prophecy for conference is that there will be no prophecies, new revelations, or major changes announced. I expect a heavy dose of the same general ideas we have already been hearing on and off for at least the past 20 years including some combination of the following:
Temples, temple marriage, and temple worthiness
Obedience
Sacrifices will be worth it
Prophets
Porn is bad
The world is evil and getting worse
Pay a full tithe to earn blessings
When in doubt read your scriptures and pray more
Don’t wait to get married or have children
The Book of Mormon needs to be 100% true
The Restoration
Priesthood
Missionary work, it’s not just for full-time missionaries
The Plan of Salvation and Atonement or repent while you can
Jesus said be nice to people
There is definitely a big difference between what Joseph Smith did with all the claimed revelations and translations and any lasting work done by all the other LDS prophets since then. Personally I think recent LDS prophets and apostles have seen their job as mostly being to just keep the Church going and uphold tradition rather than add anything truly original because the Church is already well established and the way it should be from their perspective. Also, there’s not necessarily much incentive for them to come out and make emphatic statements like “thus saith the Lord” when so many members already treat almost everything they say as if it came directly from God.
Personally I think Church leaders should downplay the idea that they supposedly have special mystical abilities that no one else does and that they will never lead the Church astray because all the nearly infallible prophet hype basically opens up the Church’s entire history to increased scrutiny and criticism once people start asking questions in hindsight. Joseph Fielding Smith was bold and confident when he predicted that men would never go to the moon but that didn’t make him right unless you believe in conspiracy theories. Brigham Young sounded extremely confident when he made many statements that are so controversial now that the only place Church members will typically hear about them at this point is in anti-Mormon propaganda.
Kumahito wrote:And he didn’t just say “I think we ought to ….” He said “Thus saith the Lord, you shall ….” He spoke in the voice of God as a prophet.
This would terrify me. I suppose it would be OK if he said “Thus saith the Lord, you shall … embark on a temple building program or intitute a Perpetual Education Program or build a new tabernacle (or even a mall)”
Where this gets scary for me is if this command of the Lord instructs us to go to war like in Zion’s camp, or gather to Zion like in Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, and Utah, or Brother Roy – you shall leave your wife and children for a period of 3 years to serve a mission for the kingdom.
Or perhaps it could go down Warren Jeffs style. Thus saith the Lord, television is of the devil…or all true saints must take their children out of that brainwashing secular public school…or Sister Roy – your husband is no longer worthy of you. God commands you to take your children and marry Brother “Pillar of the Church.”
I guess if any of these commands were direct from heaven and necessary for our salvation – then I suppose to receive them and obey them would be a blessing. I guess what I am saying is that I no longer believe this to be the case.
Roy wrote:I guess if any of these commands were direct from heaven and necessary for our salvation – then I suppose to receive them and obey them would be a blessing. I guess what I am saying is that I no longer believe this to be the case.
This is the key point, Roy. If it is absolutely necessary for a salvation of eternal rewards, then there is a need for specific direction (Forgive others, etc), but if it is choices made to get things done (mall building, lighting Jaredite vessels, tithing, word of wisdom, etc) then it doesn’t need “thus Saith the Lord”. It just needs choices made by mortals and approvals by the Lord for those choices as one way to do it. Is there really only one way God wants us to do
everything? I don’t think so, because its not about the checklist of doing things. Elder Oaks taught:
Quote:In contrast to the institutions of the world, which teach us to
knowsomething, the gospel of Jesus Christ challenges us to becomesomething. Many Bible and modern scriptures speak of a final judgment at which all persons will be rewarded according to their deeds or works or the desires of their hearts. But other scriptures enlarge upon this by referring to our being judged by the condition we have achieved.
…
This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason—for the pure love of Christ. The Apostle Paul illustrated this in his famous teaching about the importance of charity (see 1 Cor. 13). The reason charity never fails and the reason charity is greater than even the most significant acts of goodness he cited is that charity, “the pure love of Christ” (Moro. 7:47), is not an act but a condition or state of being. Charity is attained through a succession of acts that result in a conversion. Charity is something one becomes.
I believe part of the plan of salvation is that God does not tell us what to do, because it is by experiencing things that come from our own choice that we become something better than the dust of the earth, which perfectly obeys but never becomes anything other than dust to God. We are His children. We can become more like Christ by being wise servants. Too many “thus saith the Lord” statements would not help us on that journey, IMO.
Some good thoughts here. I’m certainly not looking to be chastised or called to repentance. I just think it curious how we lionize Joseph Smith for being the way he was, and yet our modern prophets are nothing like him. He was young, uneducated, unaccomplished and spoke bodly, off the cuff. The current group are old, highly educated, amazingly accomplished, and read pre-written talks off a teleprompter. Tagging “thus saith the Lord” on to a proclamation does not mean it came from God. I am sure you can find plenty of wannabe prophets wandering around the earth claiming such things. However it would at least be interesting if the current or former prophet at least had the kahoonas to make the claim. Among other things that is what made Joseph different. He may have been a colossal fraud, mislead believer or the real deal but he did it with style. As it is now we get boring recycled comments about behavior modification and we are told it is revelation. Then members run around all in a huff about how great the last conference was. It was only great because they have little to compare it to. Anecdotes and cute sayings do not a revelation make.
So yes some good advice is given from the leaders along with some bad. But lets be honest and admit it is just their opinion all the way. I believe true revelation would direct straight forward and smack you upside the head sending you home dying for more. That we do not have.
So why do we not get any big time revelation? I guess it is because like others have said we are not in need of it. God wants us to work things out on our own. So we best get on with it and stop trying to force minimalistic comments from religious leaders to be more that they are. Sage advice worthy of respect and contemplation, but no greater then the next dude with experience. The power is in you to chart your own course so best we not be looking to others to do it for us beyond taking their advice for what it is.
…sooo…Cadence, I take it your not very excited about conference coming up? 
DevilsAdvocate wrote:My prophecy for conference is that there will be no prophecies, new revelations, or major changes announced. I expect a heavy dose of the same general ideas we have already been hearing on and off for at least the past 20 years…
I stand corrected; the change of age limits for full-time missionaries to 18 for men and 19 for women is probably the single most significant change in policy the Church has made since 1978. I did not expect that to happen at all. I’m not sure that it is a positive change overall but I would be interested to know the thought process behind it. I created the following separate thread specifically about this if anyone wants to comment on this change:
Kumahito wrote:Some good thoughts here. I’m certainly not looking to be chastised or called to repentance. I just think it curious how we lionize Joseph Smith for being the way he was, and yet our modern prophets are nothing like him. He was young, uneducated, unaccomplished and spoke bodly, off the cuff. The current group are old, highly educated, amazingly accomplished, and read pre-written talks off a teleprompter.
Kumahito,
I think I know what you mean… Gospel is supposed to be about “good news” – which Joseph Smith presented – something new (even if largely based on orthodox Christianity of the time). He presented something new to consider – to try out & possibly live to make life better. Often conference talks sound like regurgitated gospel manual answers. Personally, I like Uchtdorf because he tends to bring some freshness to his talks, maybe partly because he grew up far from UT.
The church is world-wide now, unlike ever before, at least not in such a world-wide instant communication way.
I imagine the talks have to be screened before reading them, so that they don’t say something regretable – as we all do sometimes.
I agree that all religious leaders, whether GA or those who wrote or warped scriptures… – all of them are fallable human beings who are considered (by themselves &/or others) to be more godly than others, & thus with authority to preach. Some truly do have something good to share when they share it & some don’t. This also applies to Einstein, Leibniz, Martin Luther King Jr., Dr. Seusse, Buddha & countless others who had something good to share. Like Joseph Smith, I seek truth, whereever it’s found. Yet, I also don’t accept everything anyone says – I’m learning I cannot trust people to be perfect – none of us are.
Who has THE TRUTH? Who can be trusted to be a true spokesman of God, a real guru? As a friend answered, “There’s nobody here but us chickens.”
😆 God (who is a dynamically active principle of love & creatively striving for what is best) is my God, not any limited imperfect person.
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