Tithing: a Costly Leap of Faith

[Anonymous]

Shawn,

I just have a few observations that pop out to me from the quotes provided (and general experiences) but I’m not sure that you see it the same way.

1) The understanding and teaching of tithing has changed over time.

2) The current general understanding of most active members and local leadership is that an honest tithe represents 10% of gross.

3) The official church statement of tithing leaves the door open to other interpretations and introspection.

4) While the official statement doesn’t clarify much between gross or net, it does seem to discourage a surplus based approach.

Do you disagree with any of these points?

[Anonymous]

Roy, I agree that what you spelled out is the common understanding of most members and leaders – but I appreciate Shawn providing all of those quotes. I have no problem with anyone who interprets tithing in the way laid out in the quotes or any other way that is according to their own sincere understanding – with exceptions I could imagine.

I pay on net income and would never consider paying on gross. If it never hits my accounts, it never was mine – so why would I pay tithing on it? That’s my philosophy, at least.

[Anonymous]

I’ve realized there are problems with what I posted. First, the quote by Franklin Richards is totally irrelevant because he was talking about only one part of the law – the payment of surplus property upon coming to Zion. Also, Brother Talmage’s example doesn’t necessarily support the surplus theory. It could be that those who would pay nothing literally had NO income.

I confess I have spent hours reading about tithing from JOD and other sources today. I am wide open at this point.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Shawn,

I just have a few observations that pop out to me from the quotes provided (and general experiences) but I’m not sure that you see it the same way.

1) The understanding and teaching of tithing has changed over time.

2) The current general understanding of most active members and local leadership is that an honest tithe represents 10% of gross.

3) The official church statement of tithing leaves the door open to other interpretations and introspection.

4) While the official statement doesn’t clarify much between gross or net, it does seem to discourage a surplus based approach.

Do you disagree with any of these points?

1) Yeah, this is true. It’s what I am studying.

2) I wouldn’t say most understand a full tithe to be on gross. It seems that net is widely accepted.

3)Agree

4) Yes, it actually does seem the surplus approach is not supported. The applicable meanings of interest, increase, surplus, and income are debatable. I’ll let you know what I glean from my massive, wasting-my-time study.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

1) Yeah, this is true. It’s what I am studying.

2) I wouldn’t say most understand a full tithe to be on gross. It seems that net is widely accepted.

3)Agree

4) Yes, it actually does seem the surplus approach is not supported. The applicable meanings of interest, increase, surplus, and income are debatable. I’ll let you know what I glean from my massive, wasting-my-time study.

Cool, thanks for the perspective!

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

I’ll let you know what I glean from my massive, wasting-my-time study.

Haha… Shawn, Thanks for the study and quotes you’ve provided (and may still provide). I simply will say that that is part of the problem. It shouldn’t be something that requires laborious study of JOD, Millenial Star, or letters from the FP. Information available to the rank-and-file member is conflicting, except for the FP letter. That letter offers very good guidance. While it doesn’t provide a definition of what tithing is, it does clearly say that it’s up to the individual to determine what is appropriate… problem is that that letter is not accessible to average church members via any church source.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

Quote:

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly. — First Presidency Letter, March 19, 1970

I would point out the facts that have been outlined and explain that anyone who pays more than 10% of their surplus annually is making a donation beyond what is required, and that is their choice.

To me this First Presidency letter basically shows that Church leaders don’t really know themselves the best way to interpret what these “revelations” are supposed to mean and they are mostly just depending on established traditions and scriptures inherited from previous generations for most of their teachings. Why didn’t they just pray for a new revelation to clarify exactly what interest is supposed to mean? If they have been collecting more money from members than they really should year after year that seems like a pretty big thing to get wrong. Personally I don’t see how gross or net income adds up to any kind of legitimate “interest” or “increase” for most people.

Once people pay for their mortgage/rent, car payments, cable, phone, and internet bills, food, and other basic living expenses any real increase is likely to be a small fraction of their gross or net income and many are barely breaking even or actually falling further and further into debt. Of course, because the current tithing interpretation doesn’t really add up fairly and is such a huge amount of money for the average member Church leaders are basically counting on divine intervention to make it right and we hear stories and suggestions about the idea that if you don’t feel like you can afford to pay a full tithe then you should just go ahead and pay it anyway and somehow everything will magically work out for the best. That’s easy for them to say when they don’t have to live with the results of decisions like this for many average Church members all the way to their final conclusion.

[Anonymous]

OK. Something doesn’t make sense about tithing here. The leaders in the wards and stakes where I live have always told me that paying tithing can be based on gross or net income. No wonder way too many of us have faith crises. Too much confusion.

[Anonymous]

Most leaders understand tithing as being based on income, and most of them understand it can be gross or net – decided by the member paying it.

Fwiw, I know there are hardcore “grossers” , but I have never been asked by a leader if I pay on gross or net – and I’ve been paying tithing as an adult for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Here’s a list of quotes in chronological order. For each one, the reference is listed before the quote. I kept some context in some of the quotes, but I wanted to keep each one as short as possible. I underlined some phrasess. What can be surmised from all of these regarding surplus, interest, increase, and income? First, I just want to say I am glad someone is laughing with me

On Own Now wrote:

Shawn wrote:

I’ll let you know what I glean from my massive, wasting-my-time study.

Haha… Shawn, Thanks for the study and quotes you’ve provided (and may still provide).

The quotes:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119?lang=eng

Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

Brigham Young et al., “Baptism for the Dead,” Times and Seasons, Vol. 3, No. 4, December 15, 1841, p. 626.

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/9200

The Temple is to be built by tything and consecration, and every one is at liberty to consecrate all they find in their hearts so to do; but the tythings required, is one tenth of all any one possessed at the commencement of the building, and one tenth part of all his increase from that time till the completion of the same, whether it be money or whatever he may be blessed with. Many, in this place, are laboring every tenth day for the house, and this is the tything of their income, for they have nothing else.

An Epistle of the Twelve, August 15, 1844

Millennial Star Volume 5, No. 6, November 1844, page 94

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MStar/id/390

The Temple must be completed by a regular system of tithing, according to the commandments of the Lord, which he has given as a law unto this church, by the mouth of his servant Joseph…let every member proceed immediately to tithe himself or herself, a tenth of all their property and money…and then let them continue to pay in a tenth of their income from that time forth.

An Epistle of the Twelve to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in All the World, History of the Church 7:358, January 14, 1845

https://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/7/28.html

We would remind the brethren of their duty in tithing according to the laws, and commandments given through Joseph the Prophet, it is the duty of all saints to tithe themselves one-tenth of all they possess when they enter into the new and everlasting covenant; and then one-tenth of their interest, or income, yearly afterwards .

“Tithing,” Millennial Star Vol. 09, No. 1, January 1, 1847, Orson Hyde editor

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MStar/id/849

The celestial law requires one tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church, and one tenth part of his annual increase ever after. If it requires all a man can earn to support himself and family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not this world’s goods to spare, but serve and honour God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father. But the rich, and such as have this world’s goods which they can spare, without injury to themselves, or without bringing want upon themselves and upon their families, can never obtain a celestial crown unless they pay their tithing. They are not excluded, neither disfellowshipped from the church if they do not do it. We have no law to authorize us to do this; still, such as are able and do not pay their tithing, their light, like that of the foolish virgins, will go out: they will have no oil in their vessels, and consequently cannot be admitted. It, therefore, remains with every man to decide for himself whether he will seek for a celestial crown of his own free will and choice, without compulsion, or not. The poor will readily pay their tithing and more too, because tithing is not particularly required of them. The rich think that it is a hard law as a general thing, yet once in a while a rich man is caught in the gospel net, whose heart is open not only to pay his tithing, but even to sell all that he hath and give to the poor, and go forth and preach the gospel without purse or scrip. But we expect that not only our property will be tithed, but our life also, not one-tenth of it particularly, but even the whole.

JD vol. 1, p. 296

A Discourse by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 7th, 1852, at the General Conference.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/1/42

… none of you can have these blessings until you prove yourselves worthy, by cultivating the earth, and then rendering to the Lord the firstfruits thereof, the firstfruits of your cattle, of your sheep, and of all your increase…I presume if the brethren in this Conference will go into these valleys, and grow wheat, raise cattle, and other products of the earth, and then give one-tenth of all their increase into the Lord’s storehouse; and one-tenth of all they have got now, we shall be able to set to immediately, and build a temple.

JD vol. 10 pp. 253, 268

Remarks by President Brigham Young, made in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, October 6, 1863.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/10/50

Has the Lord required of us to pay Tithing? He has—namely, one-tenth of our increase…The Lord gives us possessions, and he requires of us one-tenth of the increase which we make by the putting to good use the means He has placed in our hands.

JD vol. 15 pp. 16-21

Remarks by President Brigham Young, delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Morning, April 28, 1872

http://journalofdiscourses.com/15/4

Here is one of our merchants—William Jennings—about whom a great many have remarks to make. Well, it is no matter about his trade. I want to say to the rest of the merchants that he has paid a good many thousand dollars tithing, more than all the rest of them put together. That is for William Jennings. We are paying our tithing in the Cooperative. I would not consent to go into the business on any other terms only that the tithing should be paid on all we made.

JD vol. 15, p. 146

Discourse by Elder George Q. Cannon, delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, Sept. 8, 1872

http://journalofdiscourses.com/15/22

…but it is given to man and he is required to obey it that he may receive the reward, and that he may acknowledge by this act—by this payment of the tenth of his increase —that all he obtains is the gift, and comes from the beneficent hand of God, and that he is dependent upon God.

JD vol. 15, p. 214

Discourse by Elder John Taylor, delivered at the 42nd Semi-Annual Conference, Salt Lake City, October 7, 1872.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/15/29

When we talk about paying our tithing, we believe that it is the duty of all who ever obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ to contribute one-tenth of their increase to the Lord.

JD vol. 15, p. 308

Discourse by President Orson Hyde, delivered in the 14th Ward Assembly Rooms, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, January 19, 1873

http://journalofdiscourses.com/15/38

Well, we pay our tithing. What does it consist of? One-tenth of all we possess at the start, and then ever after one-tenth of our annual income . If that be one thousand dollars per annum you pay one hundred of that in taxes to the kingdom of God.

JD vol. 15, p. 359

Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt, delivered in the 16th Ward Assembly Rooms, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, March 9, 1873

http://journalofdiscourses.com/15/45

… do they consecrate their surplus property to the Lord, placing it in the hands of the Bishop of his Church, and after that pay one-tenth of their annual income into the treasury of the Lord?

JD vol. 16, pp. 1-8

Remarks by Elder Orson Pratt, delivered at the General Conference, in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Monday Morning, April 7, 1873

http://journalofdiscourses.com/16/1

What is the law of tithing? Part of that law enjoins it upon the Saints as a duty to pay into the Lord’s storehouse one-tenth of all their annual income .

JD vol. 16, pp. 40-47

Discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Tabernacle, Ogden, Sunday Afternoon, May 18, 1873

http://journalofdiscourses.com/16/7

The Saints should pay the tenth of their income with glad and thankful hearts, and help to bring home the poor. We have supported and helped the poor to the amount of millions…Everybody should pay their tenth. A poor woman ought to pay her tenth chicken, if she has to draw out ten times its value for her support.

JD vol. 16, pp. 105-107

Discourse by President George A. Smith, delivered in the Bowery, Logan City, Friday Morning, June 27, 1873.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/16/14

Now, God required of Israel Tithes and offerings… Tithes meant one-tenth of all their increase …God has required of us, as he did of ancient Israel, obedience to that law…If a man has a sum of money come into his possession, whether by the manufacture of lumber, or the selling of merchandise, or by any other means, if he will pay his tenth strictly, according to the law, he has the blessing of God upon the balance, and if he will keep a strict, straightforward account with all his increase , whatever it may be, and strictly observe the law of Tithing, he will have blessings upon his head.

JD vol. 16, pp. 145-159

Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt, delivered in the Tabernacle, Ogden, Saturday Morning, August 16, 1873

http://journalofdiscourses.com/16/21

The Lord gave a commandment that the people that came up—gathered with the Saints—should consecrate, not all their property, but all their surplus property, and after they had consecrated all their surplus property, there should be a certain portion, not called surplus, which they should retain; and out of this that is not called surplus property, they should try to make an income, and if they could make an income, they should consecrate one-tenth part of that income … Say a man comes here with fifty thousand dollars and it is judged by proper authority that forty thousand is surplus. He goes to work with the remaining ten thousand and gets him a farm and home, and enters into some other business, and makes not only a sufficiency for support, but finds at the year’s end that he has made a thousand dollars: he has to pay one-tenth of that, that is a hundred dollars. This is really the meaning of the word Tithing.

JD vol. 16, pp. 168-169

Discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Bowery, at Paris, Oneida County, Idaho, Sunday, August 31, 1873.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/16/22

The Lord requires one-tenth of that which he has given me; it is for me to pay the one-tenth of the increase of my flocks and of all that I have , and all the people should do the same.

JD vol. 17, p. 81

Discourse by President George A. Smith, delivered at the Adjourned General Conference, held in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, May 9, 1874.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/17/13

The real time to pay Tithing is when we have the means. When we receive money, merchandise or property, if we, in the first instance, go to Bishop Hunter and pay the tenth , making our record square with our faith, we can then use the remainder with a conscience void of offense, and we shall be blessed therein.

Men may commence reasoning on this subject, and say, “We will figure all the year, and if at the end of it we find that we have saved anything, we will pay some Tithing; but if we do not save anything, we think the Bishops ought to pay us something.” The spirit which prompts this feeling is entirely wrong , and those who come to this conclusion will, in the end, feel that if they lose a crop any year they ought to keep back their Tithing for several years after to make up that loss; but the fact is that a Tithing of what we receive from the Lord is due to him, and the residue we are entitled to use according to our best wisdom.

JD vol. 19, pp.334-336

Discourses by Bishop L. W. Hardy, Elder Erastus Snow, President John Taylor, delivered at a Meeting Held in Nephi, on Wednesday Evening, May 15, 1878.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/19/47

Bishop L. W. Hardy: Tithing is a law of God which we are required to obey, and it is binding upon all the Latter-day Saints, the poor as well as the rich. In some places the widow, who depends upon the Church for support, pays one-tenth of her income as Tithing …It is not the amount that we pay, but it is the honest Tithing, paid willingly and in the faith and spirit of the Gospel, that the Lord requires, no matter how small it may be; and then, on the other hand, it matters not how large.

Elder Erastus Snow: And by this revelation we learned that we were required to consecrate all of our surplus property for the purposes mentioned therein, and after doing that, to pay annually one-tenth of our increase . This means increase from every source. For instance, if a man depend only upon the labor of his own hands, then one-tenth of his earnings would be his lawful Tithing. But if in addition to this he possess teams or employ other labor, then the increase of such labor should also be Tithed. Again, if he should be engaged opening up farms, building or making other improvements, thus accumulating a surplus around him, one-tenth of the increase of such property would be due, as Tithing, as well as a tenth of his labor combined. Then again, should part of his surplus property be in such a condition as to enable him to invest it in any branch of business, one-tenth of the profits arising therefrom is due as Tithing; or should he have money loaned out on interest, on every dollar so accumulated the sum of ten cents belongs to the Lord, in accordance to his law regulating the Tithing of his people; and so on, this law strictly applying to our income derived from every source.

It is not, as some verily suppose, the Tithing of what you may have left after deducting all of your expenses; or in other words, after spending all you can . There are some calling themselves Latter-day Saints who try to appease their conscience in the belief that Tithing means the tenth of what may be left after deducting all expenses, which would amount to this: “What we cannot spend we will give a tenth of that as our Tithing.” How much, my brethren and sisters, do you think the Lord would get if all of us felt and acted so? This is not the law of Tithing; all who aim to comply with it after this manner deviate from its true reading. We are required to pay the tenth of our increase, or interest, or income , which is our Tithing, and which is necessary for the general welfare in building Temples, sustaining the Priesthood, administering to the poor, etc., while we retain the nine-tenths for the sustenance of ourselves and families, etc.

JD vol 20, pp. 361-372

Discourse by Elder Lorenzo Snow, delivered at the Weber Stake Conference, held in the Tabernacle, Ogden City, October 19, 1879

http://journalofdiscourses.com/20/47

But as regards the law of tithing, it is in force upon the poor as well as the rich , and it seems that it acts almost unequally in some respects. There is a widow, whose income is ten dollars; she pays one for tithing, and then has to appeal to the Bishop for support . Here is a rich man who has an income of one hundred thousand dollars, and pays ten thousand for his tithing.

JD vol 22, pp. 42-50

Discourse by President Joseph F. Smith, delivered at Logan, Feb. 6, 1881

http://journalofdiscourses.com/22/6

God requires one-tenth of our increase to be put into his storehouse; and this is given as a standing law to all of the Stakes of Zion… I will leave that for you, however, to say in your hearts, whether you pay an honest tithing before God, or whether you pay a portion of your tithing. God knows; we cannot deceive Him.

JD vol. 23, pp. 313-314

Discourse by Elder F. D. Richards, delivered at Logan, on Saturday Afternoon, Nov. 6, 1882.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/23/36

Few, if any, in those days, who came to Nauvoo, had any surplus, and many had not a comfortable subsistence, consequently the tithing of the people on that Temple was mostly in labor as I well recollect—for I worked in the quarry every tenth day when I was not absent on missionary service. I remember very well that every man who was dependent on his daily labor went in good faith and performed the work assigned him, and it was considered and credited to him as his tithing. When brethren who had property gathered there they were tithed of their surplus property, and then after that of their increase of the residue from that time on .

JD vol. 25, pp. 296-303

Discourse by Apostle F. D. Richards, delivered in the New Stake Tabernacle, Provo, Sunday Afternoon, Aug. 30th, 1885

http://journalofdiscourses.com/26/32

Says one, “Here is a poor widow that does not owe any tithing; there is a poor brother who is lame and cannot work who does not owe any tithing.” Don’t they? Let us see…The Lord has instituted a means by which they may receive their blessings by the payment of their tithing. The first Thursday of every month is a Fast day, for the Saints to gather together in prayer and fasting, and to bring their offerings for the poor, that the afflicted and unfortunate may not lack for food or clothing, and the comforts of life. Now, if a poor man received one hundred pounds of flour or any other gift, it is his privilege to pay one-tenth of it as tithing, and have it credited to him on the book as a tithing payer , and in this way he pays just as much as the man who pays one hundred dollars.

Lorenzo Snow, Conference Report, October 1899, p.29

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Presidents/E-Lorenzo-Snow.txt

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing.

Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, April 1907, p.10

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Presidents/F-Joseph-F-Smith.txt

The tithing system of the Church, so often denounced as oppressive, and as imposing an arbitrary ecclesiastical tax, is in reality a system of free-will offerings. True, the members, by the law of the Church, are under moral obligation to pay one-tenth of their interest annually. But from the very nature of the principles on which churches exist, they being voluntary associations for the fostering of spiritual life, and the achievement of moral and charitable ends—in which associations membership cannot he compelled–there is no compulsory means of collecting this or any other church revenue.

Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, April 1910, p.8

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Presidents/F-Joseph-F-Smith.txt

There are a great many people in the Church whose names are recorded in a book,–some of you would be surprised, I am sure, to see that book, called the record of the non-tithe-payers. I believe that if all these members, whose names are recorded in the book as non-tithe-payers, would pay anything like an honest one-tenth of their interest annually into the bishop’s storehouse, we would have means to build all the meeting houses in Zion, that it is necessary to build.

Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, April 1920, p.2

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Presidents/G-Heber-J-Grant.txt

When we realize that thousands of Latter-day Saints who are absolutely honest in the payment of their tithes, who look upon the obligation to pay one-tenth of all they make as sacredly as they would look upon the obligation to divide with a partner, if that partner had a one-tenth interest in their business .

Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1929, p.4

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Presidents/G-Heber-J-Grant.txt

Each and every blessing that you and I enjoy comes from God. We are under obligations to him for the very breath of life, and he gives us everything that we have. He asks us to show our appreciation and acknowledge to him his goodness, by returning to the Church for its benefit and for the spreading of the gospel at home and abroad, one-tenth of that which we receive, all of which comes from him .

First Presidency Letter, March 19, 1970

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Ultimately, it’s my decision how to interpret these scriptures – as it is the perogative of each member.

NOw that I realize we are a temporal organization, as much or perhaps even more than a spiritual organization (emphasis on perhaps), I realize that all these quotes represent different administrative leaders trying to meet the temporal needs of the Church, or simply perpetuating beliefs they assimilated as other church leaders attempted to achieve financial goals. If you read Extensions of Power by Michael Quinn, he talks about how tithing evolved over the years and it solidified my own observatiosn of management behavior in secular contexts.

As an observer of management behavior, I see that managers try to achieve certain results. The first attempt does not work, but they learn something from it. They make adjustments, and then see improvement, and keep on adjusting until they find out a strategy that works.

It appears that attaching short term consequences to tithing (denying temple recommends for non-tithe paying members) is what it takes to get the kind of cashflow the church needs/wants to fund its operations. I believe (in the absence of full disclosure from the church) that the strategy was necessary at different times when the church struggled, like in the 60’s and 70’s, but that the church is well covered with cash flow now. Yet, they can’t reverse the policy and won’t in case they need the cash flow. And more cash flow is almost always better than too little, isn’t it?

[Anonymous]

More quotes:

George Albert Smith, Conference Report, Apr. 1941

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-george-albert-smith/chapter-20?lang=eng

The Lord has given us the privilege of contributing one-tenth of our interest, for His Church, for the development of His work in the world.

John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86, 1943

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf

Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses, taxes, savings, etc. To deduct living costs, taxes, and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment.

LeGrand Richards, Conference Report, April 1944, 45.

We have many inquiries at our office, constantly, about the matter of deducting taxes, income taxes, etc., before paying tithing, and we are told that in some cases the Saints are advised to do this, by their bishops. I think the bishops are being pretty liberal with the Lord’s money. Taxes are no different from what they have always been except in amount and manner of payment. We have never expected to pay our taxes out of the Lord’s tenth.

General Handbook of Instructions, Number 19, p. 67, 1963

A tithe is one-tenth of a wage earner’s gross income; a tithe is one-tenth of a professional man’s income after deducting standard business expenses; a tithe is one-tenth of a farmer’s income after deducting standard business operating expenses. A farmer should not include as standard business operating expense the produce which is used to sustain his family. A tithe is one-tenth of an individual’s interest.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Volume 5, pp. 23-25, 1966

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf

THE LAW OF TITHING WAS STRICT

…Even the weakest among us know what the tenth part of a dollar is. Therefore out of every dollar that we receive as wages or increase coming no matter from what source, one-tenth part belongs to the Lord. It is a difficult thing for any honest tithepayer to comprehend the gymnastics of the mind of any person who endeavors to “cut corners” in the payment of the tithe. When a man receives, let us say, one thousand dollars in increase, wages, income from dividends or whatever it may be, one-tenth of that sum belongs as tithing.

WITHHELD TAXES PART OF INCOME

It seems that there are some individuals who in their employment have taxes withheld from their income. They cannot justify themselves by saying that the amount withheld, but which is to their credit, should not be tithed. The fact that they did not handle or see it does not indicate that the tenth is not of their tithing. Unfortunately there are some who have taken that view of the situation. Tithing is a matter of conscience. Does your conscience tell you that you should deduct all of your expenses before tithing? Does it tell you that you do not have to pay on money that was withheld and which you never did see? If so, would you feel that you had to pay if it did come into your hands? The Lord said something about rewards, and he who gives a skimp measure will receive likewise; he who gives a measure full and running over will receive a measure of like proportions…

PAYMENT OF TITHES IS NOT A COMPLICATED SYSTEM

The payment of tithes is not a complicated system even with the farmer, stockman, barber, or a person employed in any other pursuit in life. Today by edict of the government, every wage earner, no matter what his occupation may be, is taxed on his income. The storekeeper will take an “inventory” of his substance. He will learn just what his expenses have been from all sources. Likewise he will determine just what his profit has been by this means of careful accounting; he will learn just what his “intake” free from expenses has been. This will require, of course, a careful system of record keeping. The system of taxation by the government compels, or should compel, every merchant, farmer, salesman, barber, or whatever he may be, to keep an accurate account both of his expenses and his profit, hence the government assists each of these individuals to have an accurate knowledge of what his expenses are and what his income or profit will be. The wage earner who receives a certain stipulated amount in wages should pay the tenth according to divine law.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 557, 1966

One tenth of the interest or increase of each member of the Church is payable as tithing into the tithing funds of the Church each year. Salaries, wages, gifts, bequests, inheritances, the increase of flocks, herds, and crops, and all income of whatever nature are subject to the law of tithing.

First Presidency (Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B.

Lee, N. Eldon Tanner), letter of 19 March 1970.

To Presidents of Stakes, Bishops of Wards, and Presidents of Missions.

Dear Brethren:

Inquiries are received at the office of the First Presidency from time to time from officers and members of the Church asking for information as to what is considered a proper tithe.

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually,” which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.

We feel that every member of the Church is entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord and to make payment accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I discount a lot of things that Joseph Fielding Smith said, and that comment about taxes and tithing is a perfect example of why I do that.

If I never have the money, there is no way in heaven or hell I’m paying tithing on it. That’s not just wrong, imo; it’s stupid – and I don’t care who said it.

[Anonymous]

Shawn, thanks for all the great quotes. Again, I believe this underscores confusion. The majority of these quotes are hard-line, 10% of gross, but not all. There is a lot of conflicting information here.

Take this quote from BY

Shawn wrote:

JD vol. 16, pp. 168-169

Discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Bowery, at Paris, Oneida County, Idaho, Sunday, August 31, 1873.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/16/22

The Lord requires one-tenth of that which he has given me; it is for me to pay the one-tenth of the increase of my flocks and of all that I have, and all the people should do the same.

You have 100 sheep at the beginning of the year… 20 are lost, 10 die, you slaughter 10 old sheep to eat mutton… 70 are born, but before the year is out, you slaughter five of the lambs for special occasions, and another 15 of the lambs die or are lost. At the end of the year you have a flock of 110 sheep. According to BY, the ‘increase’ of the flock… 10… is what you’d pay tithing on… in other words, you’d give one sheep, or the value of one sheep, to the church. If you are paying on ‘gross’ you give the value of 7 (one-tenth the 70 lambs that where born). If you are paying on ‘net’… or in other words, gross minus what’s taken away from you out of your gross, then you’d pay the value of 10% of 70 – 15 lambs that die or are lost = the value of 5.5 sheep. In the case of ‘net’ you are giving 55% of your ‘increase’. In the case of ‘gross’, you are giving 70% of your increase.

I’m not saying this to try to convince one way or the other, income or increase, net or gross or growth… but rather to point out that the Lord is very inconsistent when speaking through his Prophets, Seers and Revelators regarding what it even means to pay tithing.

In January, 1873, Orson Hyde said that new converts should pay 10% of everything they possess at the beginning, and then pay 10% annually. Less than two months later, Orson Pratt said new converts were to give ALL of their surplus initially, then 10% annually. Pratt reinforced this later in the summer, when he gave the example of a man coming to Utah with $50K. The “proper authority” of the church determines that $40K of it is surplus, so he gives that to the church. Hyde’s comments say he should be responsible for $5K (10%), Pratt’s that he should be responsible for $40K (80%). These instructions were given in the same year.

Also in 1873, both BY and Orson Pratt used “increase” to specify what constituted the basis of ongoing tithing. The BY example is above, with the “increase of my flocks”. Pratt’s example is clear… in the same discourse regarding the man with $10K left to him after the church’s “proper authority” decided he should give $40K, Pratt when on…

Quote:

He goes to work with the remaining ten thousand and gets him a farm and home, and enters into some other business, and makes not only a sufficiency for support, but finds at the year’s end that he has made a thousand dollars: he has to pay one-tenth of that, that is a hundred dollars.

Both examples are quite liberal in the sense that it’s not gross, not even net, but ‘increase’… in Pratt’s case, clearly stating that living expenses aren’t tithed.

Yet, 9 months later, George A. Smith was talking gross as the basis:

Quote:

When we receive money, merchandise or property, if we, in the first instance, go to Bishop Hunter and pay the tenth , making our record square with our faith, we can then use the remainder with a conscience void of offense

It’s pretty apparent from the info you’ve provided that the tithing rule morphed over time, and hardened in the early to middle 20th-century to mean no surplus rule upon joining, and 10% of gross annually. In fact, in that context, I wonder if the FP letter of 1970 was intended to squelch advice from local leaders to deduct expenses, or pay on net, and inadvertently left the door open for paying on net or even growth. That would explain why this letter has never been discussed in GC, published in the Ensign, or communicated in any official way to members of the church.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

the Lord is very inconsistent when speaking through his Prophets, Seers and Revelators regarding what it even means to pay tithing

or

Quote:

The Lord allows even the leadership of the Church to understand concepts differently, to the best of their ability, in accordance with their times and personalities, and doesn’t step in and dictate one interpretation model for lots of things.

It’s the whole “not commanded in all things” principle, but so many people don’t want that responsibility, when it comes right down to it. Even here, there often is an undercurrent, at least, of wishing that the Church leadership would state something unanimously and not make us figure it out on our own. I hope everyone here realizes how ironic that is.

Take, for example, this thread (“Why can’t they just agree and tell us what the standard is?”) and the garment thread (“Why do they have to try to give us a standard? Why can’t they let us wear it according to the dictates of our own conscience?”). The consistent stance would be either having one commanded standard in both cases or teaching the general principle and allowing us to govern ourselves. I favor the second option, so I actually am glad there are so many conflicting opinions in the quotes Shawn has provided and that the Church leadership does NOT publish a formal statement codifying a specific standard for paying tithing – especially as someone who has no inclination or desire to pay on gross and thinks doing so is illogical.

Finally, when the majority want a rule / command, they generally get it – especially in times when the majority of the leadership (and the presiding leader) are rule makers by nature. Over the last 20 years or so, we have been moving away from the dominance of that mentality from around 1950-1990, but even Pres. Hinckley didn’t mind expressing his opinion on some things that were “rule making” in nature – like the earring comment. (In his defense, at least he stated clearly in that talk that he was giving his own personal opinion – but I think the codification of that opinion into command by so many members actually helped some of our current leaders understand better how dangerous it is to express personal opinion over the General Conference pulpit, especially about things that aren’t Gospel-related.)

[Author]

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