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I am very new to my faith crisis. I am really trying to not come from anger, but with a desire to know who God is for me. I love so many things about the church and when I pray about leaving I feel that it isn’t the right thing for me to do, at least for right now. I honestly don’t even have a strong desire to leave since coming to this site. I can’t believe what a difference it has made coming here to get different perceptions and views. For the most part it is working for me and I feel that I actually WANT to go to church for the first time in months. However, yesterday was really hard for me. The RS lesson was on Tithing. I know I often hear things in black and white at church. I will even admit to my perception being off and that some of this, has to do with my upbringing.
That being said, yesterday I actually clenched my teeth and bit my tongue as the lesson seemed to be screaming to me “Pay your tithing and the Lord with love and bless you. Pay it before you take care of your family and he will love and bless you more”.. so in other words what my perception is “if you don’t pay your tithing you wont be as blessed. The Lord wont respect you because you aren’t willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING for Him.” I guess this is hard for me… the same way that Abrahams story is hard for me. I have a hard time believing the the loving God I believe in is going to make me sacrifice my son and at the time the knife is lifted say “Just kiddin’.. just wanted to see if you loved me.”.. couldn’t God have known Abrahams heart to know what he would do. Why was that necessary? I can’t imagine having my children prove their love to me. It seems the opposite of a healthy parent and loving God.
I don’t have a problem paying tithing… mostly b/c my husband does it. I have never been great at it and to be honest if it were up to me it probably wouldn’t get done.
I guess it isn’t even the tithing that bugs me the most, it is that I am SICK of feeling like I have to prove myself worthy for Father to love me. I just don’t think that feels right to me. I think he loves me regardless. I think I would get blessings regardless and I think I will have hardships regardless. I think I get to learn the lessons and curriculum that I set up before I came to earth. I think He knows that I have a warped vision of him and he is OK with that and understands that it comes with my journey and that I am trying my best to trust Him, trust my higher self and do what I believe is best for me.
How can I see this differently? What can I do to not be so angry at the “laws” of the church. I know I need to understand Mercy/Justice. I have heard the Mercy can’t rob justice… but why? I mean, I understand that we have laws.. and everything has consequence. But why isn’t it taught with more love? Am I just too much of a hippy?
For instance. I have been endowed for 17 years. I used to love my garments. They were sacred to me. Then later they started to feel like Gods punishment instead… his enforcement of Modesty. So I must have changed my views… faith crisis at the beginning??
I took them off the other day in anger.. they discussed me and angered me. I felt a nudge to look at the way I did that.. I noticed it was out of anger and I have told myself that whatever way I start living or not living this “gospel” will be made from love, not anger. So I read the forum on Garments.. I prayed to find if I should take them off or keep them on. I felt the answer I received was to go back to how I originally saw them, as Gods love, covering me with His love. I also am not ready to freak my husband out.. so that could be part of the reason too, and for the most part I don’t hate them.. just when it is super hot and when I am feeling controlled by the church and culture. Anyway, how can I come to see Tithing and “laws” in a different light?
Sorry this was so long…
I taught the tithing lesson in priesthood and someone brought up Abraham and his willingness to sacrifice his son as a comparison to tithing and I said thanks for your thoughts on that and moved on. For me, I know the church needs money and I can pay like I agreed to and it is not really to much of a sacrifice to do. But if it came to the church’s needs or my family’s, I would stop paying in a heart beat. I still get angry with church issues but I think that I am more willing to overlook individuals more than the corporate church. I do have to remind myself that the Corporation is looking to improve the bottom line while God doesn’t care less about the bottom line. I just want to be real and cut through the BS and do my own thing while staying involved with church because I can see good in the institution. I follow the rules / keep the commandments according to the dictates of my own conscience and for my own, personal reasons. For example, I do NOT pay tithing as fire insurance or as a measure / token of righteousness; I pay it to help fund the Church. Period. I do NOT attend church to be blessed in the next life; I attend church to be blessed (sometimes) and to bless others (always). I do NOT attend the temple to hold any particular calling or to get to the Celestial Kingdom; I attend the temple to commune with God in a quiet, reverent place and to remember to seal my heart to all of God’s children. I do NOT wear the garment for physical protection (or, really, even for spiritual protection); I wear it to remind myself of my relationship to God and because I love the symbols they include – and, frankly, because I’ve worn it so long it’s a habit.
I could go on and on, but the point is that I do things because I want to do things – for whatever reasons make sense to me. I really don’t care if others agree with my reasons; I care that others find reasons that make sense for them – for whatever they do, even if their actions are different than mine.
Old-Timer wrote:I follow the rules / keep the commandments according to the dictates of my own conscience and for my own, personal reasons.
What would you say was/is the biggest contributor to your outlook? Most of my life I’ve had a jump/how high mindset that flourished in the church.
I am truly grateful for my faith crisis. It has allowed me to review what I do within the church and why. Through my work, I recently met a single mother and her son. The boy attends the Head Start program and I found out through the Head Start employees that this little family has nothing. I decided that I could help the family and others if I redirected my tithing. I told my husband that I had decided to pay my tithes to local people (anonymously) and to organizations in need like the local women’s shelter. He reminded that tithing is supposed to be paid to the church, but I told him that I felt that God would be equally happy with my tithe as with those who tithe directly to the church and he agreed and supported me in that decision. I have no issue with answering the question, “Are you a full tithe payer?” with a resounding YES!
I choose to continue to wear my garments because I want to, not because I have to. Like Ray, they are just comfortable to me.
I choose not to go to the temple because that is not a place of peace for me, but I seek out other ways to find peace.
I choose to drink coffee (preferably iced), on occasion, because its yummy and I don’t think God cares all that much about what I drink.
I love that now I am making these choices according to the dictates of my own conscience instead of with an I have to attitude and I am at peace with the choices I have made so far. To find that peace, I had to give up the all or nothing viewpoint I was raised with in the church. It doesn’t have to be all right or all wrong and what is right and wrong for me may be different for the next guy. I wish you peace as you make your choices.
Unfortunately over the years since the section of the D&C about “…there is a law irrevocably decreed” adherence to commandments is seen as a way to “get blessings”. It’s a bad way to look at it and turns keeping the commandments into sort of a commercial enterprise. People that do that receive their reward but not nearly what might come to them if they obeyed out of love. When I hear people talk or preach to obey to get blessed, I just turn it off. Quote:What would you say was/is the biggest contributor to your outlook?
Honestly. my personality – and the fact that I’ve known I see things differently than nearly everyone around me since I was about seven years old, and my parents didn’t discourage that.
Quote:Honestly. my personality – and the fact that I’ve known I see things differently than nearly everyone around me since I was about seven years old, and my parents didn’t discourage that.
Ray, I can see that as I read your post. I read the part that on your mission how you taught differently than I did and what I see the majority of missionaries teaching. It is obvious that you perceived teaching differently and not so black and white or letter of the law I love that your parents didn’t discourage that because it is beautiful!! I desire this!!
I read this last night in one of the forums… I copy and paste things that resonate with me so I don’t remember what thread I read this on or who even wrote it. I may have even been you Ray.. or maybe Brian?
Quote:1. You have to want to be a part of the LDS Community. You have to be able to love and tolerate people who may not agree with your current understanding of things. You have to want to be a part of it all, and help build up the Church. It has to be your tribe. Basically, you have to self-identify as being LDS. You can’t be there to tear things down, to ruin the experience for others, or to cause the “tribe” damage and harm.
2. You have to personally be in line with current orthodox practices and beliefs, and support the mythology, or you have to have the patience to allow a difference between your personal beliefs and the official mythos of the Church. Somewhere in your heart, you have to be able to at least consider that story of the Church is divinely inspired and/or valuable. It has to at least be a possibility on some level, even if you don’t know. I don’t mean the Church is “True.” I need to clarify that, but at least God has a beneficial purpose in it.
To boil it down into a short statement, I would say this. To be LDS, someone has to want to be LDS on some level. They can’t be out to destroy and ruin the faith tradition. They have to find some enjoyment and purpose in being a part of the community. They also have to find the mythology beneficial on some level.
I love it. I am going to live my life today.. I am realizing that today my views may be one thing and tomorrow they may be something completely different. I want pure motives to serve and to love.. this church is a great place to do that. I do believe it was inspired and that it IS valuable. It has provided a “safe” path for me. Now I am ready for meat, not just the milk that it has to offer. It doesn’t mean the milk is bad.. just not “enough”.
Quote:martha wrote
I love that now I am making these choices according to the dictates of my own conscience instead of with an I have to attitude and I am at peace with the choices I have made so far. To find that peace, I had to give up the all or nothing viewpoint I was raised with in the church. It doesn’t have to be all right or all wrong and what is right and wrong for me may be different for the next guy.
Thank you so much!! I love it. That sounds more like the new way I desire to live. What helped you give up the black and white thinking? I think that is much of my issue. Maybe I am being impatient with my journey.. but the black and white thinking seems to be there and I have to talk myself out of it regularly.
Thanks so much for everyone’s responses.
opentofreedom wrote:I can’t imagine having my children prove their love to me. It seems the opposite of a healthy parent and loving God.
opentofreedom, Great post. This is an area where I think church dogma gets in the way. You’ve given great examples. From the time we are young, we are told to obey, and that obedience brings blessings. We are told that this life is “a test” to see if we will “keep the commandments”. I think this kind of statement misses the point of our doctrine.In our doctrine, which is full of hope and self-determination, we can become like God. Paul, speaking to the believers in Ephesus said that they must no longer live the way the unbelievers did, because they are “alienated from the life of God.” He told them:
Quote:You were taught to put away your former way of life, your old self, corrupt and deluded by its lusts, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God — Ephesians 4:22-24 (NRSV)
To me, our doctrine is not that God is testing us, and if we do well, he will make us like him. Rather, we are here to make ourselves like him, with his help. Life is not a test, but an opportunity.What has helped me is to stop deciding if I am a good person based on what others think, but to do good as I see it. The Church offers a great framework for doing good and for living a God-centered life, but it is only a framework. If we sleepwalk through life doing what the Church tells us, we aren’t becoming like God. There is nothing wrong with giving donations to the Church, but we have to do it of our own volition… on our own terms… and with the intent to help build up the Church, or we aren’t really taking on the “likeness of God”.
In other words, our doctrine is that doing good makes us better people, and because of that, we should do good. Our dogma teaches us that God put us here to test us to see if we are good people. Focusing on the former, and forgetting about the latter is a good recipe for life, and for being more comfortable at church, IMO.
opentofreedom wrote:How can I see this differently? What can I do to not be so angry at the “laws” of the church. I know I need to understand Mercy/Justice. I have heard the Mercy can’t rob justice… but why? I mean, I understand that we have laws.. and everything has consequence. But why isn’t it taught with more love? Am I just too much of a hippy?
There are multiple ways to understand life and Christian doctrine. What effect does Christ’s sacrifice have on us as individuals? What does he give us that we didn’t have before? Perhaps He paid the price for everything that I did bad in my life, but does that leave me to fend for myself on what I might do of
good? The scriptures seem to indicate that His righteousness/goodness is credited to us as believers. This seems to be more than just taking away the bad that was in us, but also sharing in the good that is in Christ. Christ as the Mediator fulfilled the demands of justice on our behalf. We now belong to Him. The debt that He paid is so great that we can never hope to repay it, but it is more than that. I have heard it said that mercy is not getting punishment you deserve and grace is getting reward that you don’t deserve. Once Christ pays our debt He doesn’t keep us as servants – He raises us up as co-heirs to everything He has. His inheritance is wholly His to share.
As I said before this is not the only way to view life and Christian doctrine – but this perspective is all over the NT and BOM. It is as valid a reading as any other. Most importantly – it sings to my soul…and teaches my soul to sing as well.
:angel: Oh man! I know these feeling well. So maybe check out my post on title Help with Anger in this forum. Let me share a couple of other things that have helped me. Regarding Abraham; check out Hebrews 11:17. Abraham knew what was up. He is not praised because he was such a staunch follower of God, so obedient that he would even kill his own son. It was that he had enough faith in the promise of God’s covenant, which only came through Isaac, that he believed God would raise him back up. But that is a specific thought, let me give you a more general one to apply to your grief. It is OK to feel the way you do. If that is how you feel then why believe otherwise? I found freedom when I realized that I have a choice to believe whether words that command a people to pillage and enslave, state that humanity deserves infinite torture, or proclaim that the way to exaltation is through plural marriage are from God. I feel in my gut and in my mind they are not, and that is the realm of belief and I am free to believe that and need not worry about fundamental arguments about fallibility of scripture or any of that. I know they are not true. Well what does that mean about the truthfulness of the Church? I don’t know. Do a study if you care that much, but first bask in the freedom of accepting what your heart and mind tell you. You might find the questions it creates are not as uncomfortable as you once thought the were. Good luck, my friend, I hope this helps.
opentofreedom wrote:Quote:martha wrote
I love that now I am making these choices according to the dictates of my own conscience instead of with an I have to attitude and I am at peace with the choices I have made so far. To find that peace, I had to give up the all or nothing viewpoint I was raised with in the church. It doesn’t have to be all right or all wrong and what is right and wrong for me may be different for the next guy.
Thank you so much!! I love it. That sounds more like the new way I desire to live. What helped you give up the black and white thinking? I think that is much of my issue. Maybe I am being impatient with my journey.. but the black and white thinking seems to be there and I have to talk myself out of it regularly.
First, know that it takes time. I think what really helped me is a philosophy I heard somewhere which goes something like “Think of the worst case scenario and accept it. Then move on from there.” For me the worst case scenario was that there was no divinity in the church and even worse, there is no God and no heaven. Until I accepted that as a possibility I was trapped and paralyzed with fear. At first, I could not accept that possibility, but one day it just came to me that this worst case is okay. I had 45 years of thinking that I had all the answers. Now I am just another regular person who doesn’t know jack. Ground zero is a good place to start. And what if there is no God and all I have is this one wonderful life to live. Just like someone who gets the news that he is terminal, really gets his priorities straight and really, really lives. I can try my best to leave a lasting legacy of love.
And with that line of thinking, the fear was gone. And I realized that it makes no difference in how I live my life. Questions of WofW or tithing become less relevant. No matter the destiny, whether one lifetime or eternal life, the ultimate question is, “Did I love much? Did I love my neighbor? Did I give more than I took. Did I build up others or tear them down. Did I make a difference in my small corner of time and space?
So, now I start all over back at the beginning with a desire to not rebuild my old faith, but to build a new faith that is right for me line upon line and precept on precept.
Martha +1 Quote:martha wrote:
“Think of the worst case scenario and accept it. Then move on from there.” For me the worst case scenario was that there was no divinity in the church and even worse, there is no God and no heaven. Until I accepted that as a possibility I was trapped and paralyzed with fear. At first, I could not accept that possibility, but one day it just came to me that this worst case is okay. I had 45 years of thinking that I had all the answers. Now I am just another regular person who doesn’t know jack. Ground zero is a good place to start. And what if there is no God and all I have is this one wonderful life to live. Just like someone who gets the news that he is terminal, really gets his priorities straight and really, really lives. I can try my best to leave a lasting legacy of love.
Thanks so much. I actually felt my spirit soar as I read that… It literally energized me!!!!!! Thank you so much!! I feel the same way.. that I used to have it all figured out and felt sorry for people who didn’t KNOW that they would be with their families together, or didn’t KNOW the truth that God lives.
Quote:Now I am just another regular person who doesn’t know jack.
YUP!! That is me. I was feeling sorry for myself. I actually was in the fetal position bawling my eyes out a two weeks ago… mourning what I perceived to be a part of me that died. Now I actually feel reborn… starting fresh. Finding my own belief and relationship to “God”, my higherpower, “my God self”. It is amazing how my motivation has changed from fear to love. I knew I needed to do this for years, but I never thought it would mean losing my “faith” in order to come here. I was a loving person before I had this and genuinely cared about other people but much of my service or actions of WHY I did things are different. I often did things I didn’t want to do b/c I felt in some weird way that I didn’t have a choice. It sounds ridiculous now. I see now that I always had a choice… but my fear held me bound to those unbelief’s. Does that even make any sense???
I am excited for the possibility. One of the things that I have been mourning recently are the relationships I have severed b/c I was afraid that these people would “lead me astray”. Now I don’t care what anyone believes or tries to “convince” me of. However, I am very careful about what I take as truth and I tend to see EVERYTHING as someones perceptions instead of truth. I used to think if something was part truth then maybe it was all true or if part of someones belief or a book has something “untrue’ it made the whole thing untrue. Now I love the freedom of taking what I want and leaving the rest… and taking everything as someones perceptions not doctrine. I know that sounds dramatic and maybe it wasn’t all the time that way, but for the most part this is how black and white I was.
Hawkgrrrl said something to the fact that black and white thinking is very unhealthy way to live in any aspect. I believe it. I told my RS president that I tend to see things in Black and white and I am trying not to and she said …and I quote… “Well, so does God and as far as He is concerned there is no grey area.” I didn’t argue, but felt annoyed and knew that wasn’t the truth… that was over a month ago. Wow, have things have changed.
People tend to think God thinks the same way they think or, at least, approves of the way they think (no matter how they think or their religious affiliation)– even with the clear statement: Quote:“My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways.”
That, alone, ought to give us pause and allow charity and grace more room in our hearts and minds.
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