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I might be missing the analogy or focusing on the wrong portion of it. Perhaps if the apartment complex was a part of a larger parent company, the parent company had a provision in every lease that said “small pets only” and there was some difference of opinion between the tenants and the local manager as to whether the dog in question was small… but I realize that’s only an isolated portion of the analogy. If we approach the TR questions as only meeting the expectations of the church and using that as determining whether we are honest with our fellow man then I don’t even have to stick around long enough to get to the question about tithing. I’d “fail” the first question. That and I suspect there would be fewer temple recommend holders.
I’m sure much of the issue here is one of perspective. I myself don’t see the FP1970 letter as giving carte blancheto the individual to pay at any level or to whomever they want. I see it as saying that tithing is 10% of income and that the specifics of what that means are up to the payer to decide. Don’t get me wrong, tithing is one of my hot buttons with regards to the Church. I think the Church asks too much and I think the Church does a very poor job of advertising its own policy; allowing far too many people to think that gross is the expectation.
For, me, though, I’ve decided that I can’t answer the TR interview questions in an acceptable way; that the nuances can’t stretch that far. Being an Atheist has more to do with it than tithing, but tithing is a factor. I’m fine with staying away from the temple in order to gain peace of being true to who I am. Others gain peace in other ways, including nuancing the answers in a way they are fine with, but which would make me uncomfortable. It’s not up to me. I’m not going to judge anyone for wanting to attend the temple and stretching the rules a bit to do so, but for me, I’m at peace with with my approach. I haven’t been to the temple since Al Gore was VP.
I don’t really get the landlord tenant analogy. It sounds like the analogy exposed the tenants as hypocrites for expecting the landlord to do certain things while not abiding by the terms of their own contract to keep dogs out of the apartment/house. Perhaps you are saying that people who do not pay tithing shouldn’t be criticizing the church for its stance on it. In other words, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
Perhaps you have a point, but to continue the landlord analogy, I feel like the tenant that abided by every policy and commandment for decades at great personal sacrifice and found the landlord never fixed anything when the chips were down (floods, broken air conditioning in the middle of summer, broken heat in the dead of winter). And to make matters worse, I can’t break my lease without losing my marriage.
As far as what “income” means, current thought is probably gross or net among most members. Income has many different meanings unfortunately. From a sheer accounting perspective, income means the amount left over after expenses, taxes, interest and depreciation. Its meaning is synonymous with surplus. The scriptures, which we sustain as doctrine, refers to “increase” which implies retained earnings, which is essentially the amount of income left over after you pay your shareholders a dividend. The dividend part doesn’t apply to individuals, who do not have shareholders, but the retained earnings concept — or your annual increase (net income) seems to apply.
The fact is, the meaning of the number on which you pay your 10% has been redefined by the church a few times now as it sought to pay its bills.
I am comfortable with my own definition — surplus as this marries self-reliance and and giving.
I recently started tithing on gross, rather than net, and almost immediately, I received so many orders for my small business that I barely have time to get them all shipped. Windows of heaven! 😆 Haha:) like they will ever post that story in the ensign!!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have paid tithing on my surplus for years , I tried the other way on Gross and it never worked I just can’t make my finances work . Tithing is a charitable contribution and I and I alone will decide how much to give. God does not need my money but I do believe in supporting the church and it’s mission. Tithing on my surplus works for me and also for me is a 100% tithe . The Community of Christ members Tithe this way (formerly Reorganized LDS church) . The way I see it tithing is between myself and God and no one elses business !!!!!!!!! jgaskill wrote:I have paid tithing on my surplus for years , I tried the other way on Gross and it never worked I just can’t make my finances work . Tithing is a charitable contribution and I and I alone will decide how much to give. God does not need my money but I do believe in supporting the church and it’s mission. Tithing on my surplus works for me and also for me is a 100% tithe . The Community of Christ members Tithe this way (formerly Reorganized LDS church) . The way I see it tithing is between myself and God and no one elses business !!!!!!!!!
I love this approach.
Hi Bear, I am going to share my personal story…..A few years ago, my husband went through a job change. We had been self employed and with the economy problems at the time, our business of 14 years changed dramatically and it became necessary to find other employment. We had been successfully self employed to this point. My husband took a job that was working out of town as we considered our next move. I stopped paying tithing and let my temple recommend lapse. The first time EVER in our married life of 30 years. 3 months into this, my bishop asked to meet with me. My hubby was out of town at the time. He was concerned about my recommend expiring and I told him why. We had a very nice and interesting conversation. I felt the spirit very strong within myself confirm that I was indeed doing the right thing for my family. My bishop however, told me that they could help us during this time but to still pay my tithing. I replied that if I didn’t pay my tithing I would require no help and I felt that the Lord would rather me take care of my family needs instead of having the church. We agreed to disagree and I left. Of course, I was troubled and began looking into tithing more thoroughly than I had before. I had never heard of surplus or even the idea of not having surplus. When I came across the original tithing information I was again reaffirmed that I had made the right choice for me. I learned so many things about tithing that I didn’t know. Through this whole transition of faith I am learning how important it is to rely on yourself for spiritual confirmation. Don’t confuse with others expectations even leaders. I also want to say that I don’t believe that God blesses people who pay more tithing. I feel very blessed these past years through our business and life changes and I have been blessed more than ever. Research this out. There are many resources that are reputable and you may be surprised as I was as you expand your knowledge on the idea of tithing. It was difficult at first to wrap my mind around ideas that I had never entertained before. I was very orthodox. As I have become more educated of our church and history, my beliefs have shifted a lot and I don’t harbor the guilt and fear that I once did. It is very liberating and frees me to feel a much deeper love and personal connection with God. God bless!
Welcome awakening. Thanks for sharing. Glad to hear of the peace you have found. Please share where you can Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Awakening wrote:Hi Bear,
I am going to share my personal story…..A few years ago, my husband went through a job change. We had been self employed and with the economy problems at the time, our business of 14 years changed dramatically and it became necessary to find other employment. We had been successfully self employed to this point. My husband took a job that was working out of town as we considered our next move. I stopped paying tithing and let my temple recommend lapse. The first time EVER in our married life of 30 years. 3 months into this, my bishop asked to meet with me. My hubby was out of town at the time. He was concerned about my recommend expiring and I told him why. We had a very nice and interesting conversation. I felt the spirit very strong within myself confirm that I was indeed doing the right thing for my family.
My bishop however, told me that they could help us during this time but to still pay my tithing. I replied that if I didn’t pay my tithing I would require no help and I felt that the Lord would rather me take care of my family needs instead of having the church.We agreed to disagree and I left. Of course, I was troubled and began looking into tithing more thoroughly than I had before. I had never heard of surplus or even the idea of not having surplus. When I came across the original tithing information I was again reaffirmed that I had made the right choice for me. I learned so many things about tithing that I didn’t know. Through this whole transition of faith I am learning how important it is to rely on yourself for spiritual confirmation.Don’t confuse with others expectations even leaders. I also want to say that I don’t believe that God blesses people who pay more tithing. I feel very blessed these past years through our business and life changes and I have been blessed more than ever. Research this out. There are many resources that are reputable and you may be surprised as I was as you expand your knowledge on the idea of tithing. It was difficult at first to wrap my mind around ideas that I had never entertained before. I was very orthodox. As I have become more educated of our church and history, my beliefs have shifted a lot and I don’t harbor the guilt and fear that I once did. It is very liberating and frees me to feel a much deeper love and personal connection with God. God bless! This part really gets me. I am on the same plan of being independent of outside help wherever possible. We have heard that the church wants us to work for the sake of our dignity, self-esteem etctera when members receive welfare. So, there is something negative about receiving it — or at least, perceived that way — so you can level the playing field by working for it (chapel cleaning, etcetera).
Further, the church preaches self-reliance as a basic principle. Yet, the church wants you to keep paying your tithing and be on their welfare system. That doesn’t seem right. You put your own mask on first when there is a oxygen problem in the plane.
The second point in bold is the key, in my view, to finding peace in Mormonism even though you don’t buy into it all. Great post above…you have to trust your heart!!
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