Tithing question: how do you do it?

[Anonymous]

Hi all! I am new here; I have an introduction on the intro board if you want all my backstory.

Long story short, my husband and I are no longer literal believers (and don’t want to teach our children such) but because of family, friends, culture, familiarity, etc we have decided to try to find a way to stay active in the church. We’re happy with this plan and feel peace for the first time in quite a while.

But I still have a few questions about how exactly to do this. Our biggest question right now is tithing. We have always, always paid tithing, even though we have four kids and quite frankly don’t make a lot of money. I’ve never had a hard time paying tithing–I’m fine living on a small budget. But now that we have admitted to each other that we don’t believe in the church anymore and there are also quite a few things we flat out disagree with in the church, we don’t really want to pay tithing any more. I don’t like that I don’t know for sure what my money is being used for and it feels weird to financially support something that we actively disagree with.

We’re not sure if we should just stop paying tithing and give up our temple recommends, keep paying so that we can continue to fly under our bishop’s radar, or what. We really don’t want to become the subject of ward councils and scrutinity. I’m interested in what other people have decided to do.

[Anonymous]

There are some really good threads in our archives. As I tend to do, I encourage you to look them up and read them.

Personally, I pay on net income – but I do it to help fund the operations of the Church, not as fire insurance or any other post-mortal blessing. I also do NOT pay on gifts or gift card amounts or anything else that is not income, especially when I know the money has been tithed already by the person who gave it to me.

Finally, my wife and I are thinking of starting to pay online, to avoid having to write checks and to make sure our contributions get recorded individually and never lumped under my name – which has happened in two wards in our past. (It has not happened, usually, but, local Ward Clerk roulette being what it is, it has happened.)

[Anonymous]

You don’t need to worry about a ward council just for not paying tithing. There would be no basis for a bishopric to hold a council simply based on that. However, I can relate to your question, as I’ve stopped paying tithing within the past few years. I gave up my temple recommend, and continued to pay tithing for a while after that. However, I began to feel similar to what you’re describing, that I was paying into an organization that I was unsure about. I wasn’t sure how my money was being used. However, I strongly believe that donating for a good cause is important. Not just for those who receive the donation, but also for the person who is donating. I believe in giving. So, I donate to a women’s shelter, through automatic paycheck donations through my employer. And, instead of paying tithing to the church, I pay that same amount in Fast Offering instead of tithing. I like knowing that my money is being used to help people on a local level.

[Anonymous]

brittastheworst wrote:

We really don’t want to become the subject of ward councils and scrutinity. I’m interested in what other people have decided to do.

I read about the history of tithing and reached the conclusion that the current method of encouraging tithing (on some form of revenue before expenses, tied to temple recommend status) is simply a formula the church had to implement to fund its operations years ago. In the beginning, they tried many different ways of defining tithing, and none of them met their satisfaction for revenue generation.

Then they came out with the current definition, and it worked. The church is awash in cash, I believe,and they are unwilling to lessen the burden on members — perhaps because they are convinced its good for spirituality, doctrinal, or maybe because they don’t want to lower expectations in case they need the money. Further, tithing as currently defined is deeply rooted in our culture.

This is evidenced by their unwillingness to disclose the true economics of their situation, and how easily they seemed to have gotten through the recession recently. There were no calls for money from the members I am aware of, and they seemed to be able to keep expanding their buildings etcetera.

So, I decided to let the temple recommend expire. I stopped paying. If I ever do pay again, it will be on my own definition — surplus. The church gets its share after my basic needs have been met. This is consistent with their own emphasis on self-reliance.

I don’t see it as paying tithing to God, don’t believe in the fire insurance philosophy, and don’t think it makes me feel any more spiritual to pay it.

Currently, I give to causes I really believe in and that bring me passion, self-actualization, and help me achieve goals that would otherwise be frustrating in my community service. It is SO much easier as the tithing contributes to multiple, altruistic and important goals I have all at the same time. And I FEEL like a philanthropist rather than simply a dutiful member of a congregation.

Also, remember that currently, the leadership doesn’t require us to disclose exact incomes — they simply ask if what we paid represents 10%. I have even written off real estate losses in certain years that have wiped out my income and tithing — that was before I made the decision to stop paying.

Now, if you had faith in the fire insurance, the blessings, and all the other things that the church encourages us to believe to pay tithing, I wouldn’t be sharing my own approach. But with this approach, I am at peace with it, I really am. Good luck in your decision-making. One bit of advice I have, however, is to not share your philosophy, your lack of belief, or anything counter-culture with people locally or your leaders. Keep your options open and always give vague hope when questioned…

[Anonymous]

brittastheworst wrote:

We’re not sure if we should just stop paying tithing and give up our temple recommends, keep paying so that we can continue to fly under our bishop’s radar, or what. We really don’t want to become the subject of ward councils and scrutinity. I’m interested in what other people have decided to do.

I do not pay tithing. Frankly, I believed that tithing payment would protect my family. After we had a stillborn daughter we felt like the contractual small print actually disavowed any and all promises of “blessings”. I felt betrayed and lied to. I haven’t paid tithing since. I was serving as WML and DW as Primary Pres. at the time. That following tithing settlement my bishop said that he understood my struggle personally but as a church administrator he would have to confiscate my TR. I have not had a TR since.

Fast forward 6 years. I have held callings in the YM, primary, and currently scouts. I have met with several bishops over the years. I am upfront that our personal loss has thrown things that we once held as absolute into question. I also tell them that I hope for the promises of the gospel to be true. I act on that hope (coming to church, living the commandments, holding callings, etc.) as an act of faith. However, the one thing that I still “struggle” with is the payment of tithing.

It hasn’t been easy. In these meetings I do not challenge the mindset that I am breaching my duty in not paying tithing. “God has given you everything and only requires 10% back,” “You promised to pay tithing from baptism on up through your temple sealing.” “You are holding your wife back by not taking her to the temple.” I accept the position of a delinquent or unprofitable servant because I feel that is the least controversial position to take. I present myself as working on my “struggling” faith one step at a time. I may be a “backslider” but I am not dangerous or contentious. For me, it is a big helping of humble pie.

Thankfully, I have been able to baptize my 2 living children in the last few years. The handbook does not require a TR to do so but your bishop does need to approve. I am also hopeful that I may give the priesthood to my son when the time comes. I feel sort of an obligation to pass down what was given to me from father to son.

When bishops try to motivate me to pay tithing they nearly always use arguments that no longer hold water for me (but I do not challenge lest I am perceived to be a dangerous apostate. Instead I usually thank them for their concern/invitation to pay in a non-committal way).

The two reasons to pay tithing that do currently make sense to me are as follows:

1) Club Dues: I pay to do my part to keep the lights on.

2) To free myself from selfishness. Tithing can be a way to assert freedom from letting possessions (and the fear of losing them) from dominating my thoughts.

Unfortunately, I just do not find these reasons as motivating as the former “Pay tithing = get blessings” quid pro quo and thus I struggle.

Not paying tithing introduces extra challenges into church participation. How do you handle not going to the temple for important family events? How do you approach the question of who will perform baptisms or ordinations for the children? What do you tell your bishop for tithing settlement? All of these are questions that you will need to decide for yourself if you take this particular path of participating in the church without paying tithing.

I hope that helps.

[Anonymous]

I should add that I do believe in the concept of tithing as it relates to detachment from greed and selfishness, but I am totally fine with individuals determining how much they should pay and to whom / what they should give.

Also, the official Church position on tithing is that members determine how they calculate and pay tithing, with 10% being the only defined element. I know totally active members who do that in quite a few ways.

[Anonymous]

This is one of the recent discussions about tithing: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7133

This was my response:

Quote:

“My advice: Come up with a decision. Pray about it. Don’t ask for clarification from the Bishop or SP.”

I went to Tithing Settlement last week, declared it to be a full tithe.

I believe it to be true then & I do now.

When I receive further light, I will pray about it & make adjustments where necessary.

I refuse to make it more complicated than that.

[Anonymous]

We started out paying tithing on gross income. My husband was self-employed. We paid both sides of SSI, bought our own health insurance, and struggled to put anything into the bank.

We lived in a military town at the time. A member was talking about what a good tithe payer he was because he paid on his gross income. We got talking and I realized that he received a housing stipend, health insurance at no cost, retirement benefits, subsidized vacation rentals, and groceries for less. He didn’t pay tithing on any of those benefits.

We moved to paying on net income.

Later, as we started to invest, we realized that when one puts away a large percentage of their income, and pays taxes, it is possible to have a negative number when tithing is computed. We changed to a very simple formula, “any money that went through the house accounts, got tithed on.” Investment money would be taxed when it became spendable and moved to a house account.

This last year, I quit paying tithing on my income, I don’t believe anymore. We do pay tithing on my DH income. He does believe. We still pay fast offering.

Instead of tithing, I look for opportunities to help people. I helped a random stranger with her in vitro costs. She got pregnant, and I was pleased with my donation. I have paid for a bomb-sniffing rat to be trained to find old ordinance in Mozambique so that little kids don’t get arms and legs blown off. ( they have great results). I have bought groceries for someone who needed them, donated to the local shelter, gave money towards college scholarships, and just random stuff that helped some one in need. I have been really pleased with the small ways in which I have been able to help. It feels good.

I was over the ward Christmas party last year. Did a great meal and never turned on a single receipt. I don’t think the ward ever even noticed. But I knew and I liked the way it felt.

The bishop has never said a word about my tithing status. DH went in for his tithing settlement alone. Bishop commented that he knew I was struggling with some things and asked DH how he and/or the ward could help.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

Later, as we started to invest, we realized that when one puts away a large percentage of their income, and pays taxes, it is possible to have a negative number when tithing is computed. We changed to a very simple formula, “any money that went through the house accounts, got tithed on.” Investment money would be taxed when it became spendable and moved to a house account.

Good plan. I like it.

Quote:

We still pay fast offering.

At least we know where that is going….to help people who can’t buy food and shelter.

Quote:

Instead of tithing, I look for opportunities to help people. I helped a random stranger with her in vitro costs. She got pregnant, and I was pleased with my donation. I have paid for a bomb-sniffing rat to be trained to find old ordinance in Mozambique so that little kids don’t get arms and legs blown off. ( they have great results). I have bought groceries for someone who needed them, donated to the local shelter, gave money towards college scholarships, and just random stuff that helped some one in need. I have been really pleased with the small ways in which I have been able to help. It feels good. I was over the ward Christmas party last year. Did a great meal and never turned on a single receipt. I don’t think the ward ever even noticed. But I knew and I liked the way it felt.

Great job here. I know the feeling. I have similar stories and it sure feels great to give and know exactly how the funds were used, that you feel the cause is worthy, and to feel like a philanthropist. I mostly felt resentment when I paid tithing because I felt forced into it — how much, to whom, when it was due, with an accounting meeting — with no regard for my personal circumstances. It always bothered me that tithing settlement is the only time we have a meeting over a single commandment….and in that sense, it felt like the church was behaving no differently than everyone else who is after my surplus….Examples like above put self-reliance and agency where it belongs – in the hands of the person paying.

[Anonymous]

We’ve always paid on net, and still do. My husband has no misgivings about tithing, and it doesn’t happen to be a sticking point for me. I understand how it could be, though, and I’m enjoying reading this thread. I think mostly about the positives for me of paying it (not saying I expect blessings), and not the big picture of what the church does with it. There are so many biblical practices that I either have nothing or want nothing to do with. To my mind, it’s nice to have one that still resonates for me today.

[Anonymous]

You get to work out what tithing means to you. What the Lord tells you how much it is. You also get to decide what you believe about the LDS church. This obviously affects the first question.

Personally, I pay on my gross income. I pay on any Earned Income credit I get from the government. I see it as sort of a payment for having the children I have. I do not generally pay on cash gifts.

I pay tithing because I have chosen to believe in the church. I recognize that there is a leap of faith in that. I trust that my contribution is an acceptable offering to the Lord. To me that is the key to settling on how to calculate the tithing portion that will work for you. I believe the Lord wants us all to be willing to give all for His kingdom. He, in return, offers all that he has. It is up to you to figure out where and how the kingdom of God is represented on earth and to decide how to give your all to it.

[Anonymous]

I pay on net income and always have. I do not believe many things in the church but still attend for family issues . I really consider myself a Christian attending a Mormon church . I have no problem paying tithing because it funds the good things about the church (which it does many good things) . I attend the temple just to please my wife and God if God hopefully recognizes the sacrifices I make to attend. Long story short I like flying under the radar and have done so for many many many years . I do not want doctrine discussions or debate it is not my way . I love many things about the church but also disagree on many key points but again keep it to myself , in short I attend , pray and believe what I believe !!!!!!!!!!! Hope that helps.

[Anonymous]

I pay tithing on gross income. I got a testimony of tithing being an act of faith back when I first came back to church after having been gone for 6 years or so. I didn’t have enough to pay rent and tithing, but when I came back, I decided to put God to the test and paid it. It was an odd amount, calculated as 10% of my gross income. The next day, I got a check in the mail from some roommates from a year earlier for the last month’s utilities in our previous apartment. It was the exact same amount I paid for tithing the day before. I was shocked. I’ve paid 10% on my gross income ever since as it has increased my faith in God and has also helped me to symbolically put Him first in my life and has helped me to be a little less selfish.

I pay on gross because that’s what I earn. I get services from the difference between my gross and net in the form of streets, protection, etc. it’s just that I don’t get to hold that money in my hands before paying for those services. I hadn’t thought of paying on benefits like health insurance, but that comes out of my check too and then my company pays for part of it too. Not sure if the company’s part of that is a benefit that I need to include or not. I’m willing to pay whatever God wants me to pay and I think that’s the point for me. The law of consecration is 100% minus a kickback for my needs, so I’m not complaining.

I do actually believe this is God’s and Christ’s church on the earth though, so that’s different than your situation. If I didn’t believe that, I’d probably find a church I felt matched my beliefs the most and donate money toward that cause. If I believed in tithing as explained in the bible and elsewhere, I’d still pay as I am now because God commanded it and it helps me have faith in Him. If I didn’t believe in the law of tithing as described in the bible, I’d probably just give how much I felt like giving to the programs I felt good about supporting.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Richalger wrote: ” I trust that my contribution is an acceptable offering to the Lord. To me that is the key to settling on how to calculate the tithing portion that will work for you. I believe the Lord wants us all to be willing to give all for His kingdom. He, in return, offers all that he has. It is up to you to figure out where and how the kingdom of God is represented on earth and to decide how to give your all to it.”

.

Absolutely.

I used to tithe through the LDS church and trusted them to put it to excellent use. Now, I tithe directly to people and organizations that help the needy. Usually, I don’t get the tax write-off, but I feel like I am doing the Lord’s work.

Jgaskill, I attend to support my husband and daughter. As time goes on, I find myself often leaving after sacrament meeting. My husband isn’t going to be in SS due to his calling, and I’m not getting much out of SS personally. In fact, it is often down right painful.

I am very impressed that you are still fully active with a TR. Wow.

[Anonymous]

I am struggling with tithing a bit – not so much that I don’t want to part with the $, but I would like to take some and give it to other organizations. I have not fully come out to my wife, but I am contemplating if I should just keep paying on gross to keep the peace, or push that some of “my” half of the $ will be paid on net and I get to give the difference between net 10% and gross 10%. Still wondering what will work best.

[Author]

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