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I was visiting with a Christian woman of another denomination years ago. She talked about paying a full tithe. Her tithe included 2% to one congregation, 3% to another congregation, and 5% split between various causes that she supported. Before visiting with her, I had never thought of tithing that way before. In FC, it has been a good way for me to handle it.
I don’t to doubt myself and wonder if I left the church because I didn’t want to pay tithing. This allows me a way to sacrifice and pay the tithing without sending it the church.
I don’t believe there are any special blessing from paying tithing and I frankly struggle with it sometimes. I do not pay on gross. I see it as funding church operations, including paying the local bills and funding local activities like our Christmas party and ward picnics. I do wish the church was a bit more open about how the money is actually spent and how much the church actually has – but I think if they did say how much they have some people might conclude that the church doesn’t need their money. I do recall the days when a new ward building or a new temple meant separate donations to building funds and when utility bills and building repairs were funded locally from a separate fund and families were “assessed” (committed to) an amount necessary to pay those bills.
Were my wife and I on the same page I would certainly consider paying part of what we now pay to other causes, especially those which help the poor and needy.
We pay on our gross income and always have. However, I know of some people who pay on the net. However, for clarification this is what it says in the Handbook: Quote:The First Presidency has written: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970; see also D&C 119:4).
I have taken this to mean that each individual decides what they will pay and whether it is “full.” I’m okay with that.
I probably should explain why I choose to pay on net: I actually don’t receive the gross amount, so I don’t view it as my “income” (what comes in to me). If I get a tax refund, I pay tithing on it. If I ever use my 401K funds that are deducted pre-tax, I will tithe it.
If I paid on gross, to me, that would be more than 10% of “my” income.
I am completely fine with other people calculating tithing differently than I do, but that is my reasoning. To me, it is one of the two most straightforward definitions: income and increase.
Personally, we’ve always paid based on gross and done it using stock transfer directly to COB which means it’s not tracked locally. This year as we started a new business, we have nothing to pay because we literally have no income. We are living out of our savings entirely, and using our savings to fund the business. We aren’t poor, but we make no money, let alone a surplus. Doctrinally, paying on surplus, interest, or increase is what is supported by scripture. Paying on gross or net is a regressive tax on poor families.
My strong feeling is that there is spiritual value in detachment from wealth. When we feel we’ve earned it, we lack humility. We should recognize that we came into this world with nothing and will leave our belongings behind.
Bill Reel posted this today:
http://www.wheatandtares.org/19945/tithing-have-you-considered-paying-on-surplus/ I feel obligated go help those less fortunate than me and also to do my part to “keep the lights on”. I feel that the scriptures give me freedom to choose how to do that. Malachi doesn’t say I have to pay the LDS church. I donate a non trivial sum to a BYU scholarship fund and my employer matches that amount. I feel I’m helping someone in a real way and it still benefits the church indirectly. I have also started to consider my time to be very valuable lately. I work hours every week for the direct benefit of the church, and while I don’t convert that into a monetary value, it helps me feel good about how I donate.
I wanted to add something. It’s been a really long time since my kids died, but their friends have grown up, some have gone to college, some have gotten married, and started having children. The loss is no longer the loss of just my children. It now includes the loss of the next generation. Bitter? Yup. That would be my new middle name. It feels like God ripped me off. Where are the [insert profanity] blessings that the church promises tithing is supposed to bring? All the promises of health and protection. Tithing and prayer were even supposed to help me find my car keys!
I’m okay with tithing being dues that help pay for the finances of the church. But when huge promises are made??? No. Those are lies made in order to get me to dig a little deeper into my wallet. Lies to make me think I’m getting something for the money paid.
Tithing to God is money given to help the larger community. I’m doing that — just not through the church anymore.
Tithe to an organization that makes huge promises about getting God’s special protection? Nope. Three children. Three separate deaths. Three separate incidences. God didn’t play fair. Yes, I know that the scripture don’t promise anything. But that was the fine print that I figured out later. The church advertises that by being a tithe-paying member, you have a special relationship with God. When bad things happen, they pull out the fine print, and ask why you didn’t read the contract a little better. There are no promises. None.
Now we have a discussion going on about Gross vs Net. And there are people who think they are somehow more righteous or deserving of blessings because they pay gross.
I had paid gross PLUS before my kids died. Our finances were in ruins due to insurance that wasn’t in network with any of the facilities or providers. Surpise, the church didn’t ask if we needed financial help. Just the opposite, they just assumed we had everything taken care of. I assume if we had gone and asked for help, they would’ve helped, but their idea of help would’ve been a food order. The church isn’t set up to help any one individual in a big way — even when that member has written some big checks over the years to the church. It’s all one sided .. Tithing goes in from members. Tithing doesn’t go out to help members. Fast offerings do, but that is an amount separate from the tithes of the church.
Gross or net doesn’t matter. Really. Neither is going to change anything about your relationship with God. He doesn’t work for pay, and he doesn’t take bribes.
amateurparent wrote:Gross or net doesn’t matter. Really. Neither is going to change anything about your relationship with God. He doesn’t work for pay, and he doesn’t take bribes.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: (I’m sorry for your losses, AP, and I know similar bitterness. As stated above, I struggle at times and this is why. You and I have apparently had some similar experiences with what you refer to as the “fine print.” I’m sure leadership roulette does play some role in these experiences, but it also seems to be widespread enough that most who have had a serious need have encountered the fine print. And God is not involved, leadership roulette or not.)
We used to be big donors. Like Hawk we paid COB in stock options. Today we donate to local charities and fast offerings. When asked in interviews, I answer in the affirmative. I believe my stock options are probably still gaining interest in a vault somewhere, so yeah I pay in full. Someone else can define if it’s gross/net/surplus. amateurparent wrote:I wanted to add something. It’s been a really long time since my kids died, but their friends have grown up, some have gone to college, some have gotten married, and started having children. The loss is no longer the loss of just my children. It now includes the loss of the next generation. Bitter? Yup. That would be my new middle name.
It feels like God ripped me off. Where are the [insert profanity] blessings that the church promises tithing is supposed to bring? All the promises of health and protection. Tithing and prayer were even supposed to help me find my car keys!
Many of us understand how you feel. I am one of them. Our situations are rarely the same. Our reaction is rarely the same.
Anger is an emotion that I have had to come to terms with. For me, it is a very dangerous emotion. I’ve talked about it in other posts.
Overtime, a new perspective has come to me that I’m comfortable with. I hope it comes to you too. It is difficult to communicate.
Minyan Man, I thought I was way past anger and had been for years. Then my oldest daughter’s friends started having babies, and I am re-visiting the topic. Quote:
Minyan Man, I thought I was way past anger and had been for years. Then my oldest daughter’s friends started having babies, and I am re-visiting the topic.I won’t thread jack this here but your comment reminds of the simple Sunday School answers we give in class that so irk me. I love a tough gospel, but I want us to address it instead of put a bandaid on a heart attack.
amateurparent wrote:Minyan Man, I thought I was way past anger and had been for years. Then my oldest daughter’s friends started having babies, and I am re-visiting the topic.
I remember once asking in a grieving support group about how to grieve in a positive progressive fashion. I wanted to check the steps off my list and move on. I was told that I was looking at it wrong. It is not always linear and it is perfectly natural and healthy to revisit previous “phases”.
amateurparent wrote:I’m okay with tithing being dues that help pay for the finances of the church. But when huge promises are made??? No. Those are lies made in order to get me to dig a little deeper into my wallet. Lies to make me think I’m getting something for the money paid.
It helps for me to think that these are the lies that people tell themselves. If people believe that God is looking out for them, it can be their own personal security blanket. Good for them. I sincerely hope that they never need to examine that proverbial “small print”. These same people make up the church and make promises to others based upon what they hope for themselves.
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