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Old-Timer wrote:
let’s be very, very careful about throwing around statements like tithing keeps Mormons in poverty. It doesn’t – and certainly not to the extent that it keeps clothing and food from children.
It can do, Ray. People should give, but what they can afford. Some people give more than they can afford, that’s the problem, and that’s why they may stop tithing later. If you tithe and give more than you can afford then that will drive you into poverty.
I understand and agree, Sam, with that as a general statement – and I know that there are exceptions to every rule and that fast Offerings aren’t distributed “properly” in too many cases. I’m just very wary of “extreme” statements (on either side of any issue), especially ones that can be mis-interpreted easily. That’s my main concern here – that we don’t throw around statements that tithing itself “causes” poverty. It doesn’t, especially if Fast Offering funds are used as intended.
I definitely don’t think tithing causes poverty. I do think bad accounting does, or bad timing as well. Usually I find it to be self-correcting. I tithed too much one month, and adjusted accordingly the next. Silent Dawning, Do you have a problem with the church’s current definition of “pay on your increase” and then you are to decide what it means to you? You seem more worried about what church leaders think, and I think they’ve been pretty good about saying it’s between you and the Lord. Pay what you think the Lord expects, and quit worrying about what Bishop A says or Bishop B says.
I can tell you that I have used different definitions of tithing as I learn different things. I had a teacher say that he didn’t pay tithing on 401k contributions, because he planned on paying tithing on that money at retirement. I thought that sounded reasonable. When I had my own business, I realized that you have to spend money on advertising to make money. So “gross” income did not equal revenues. I took my revenues, substracted expenses, and paid tithing on that. Sometimes I operated at a loss. While I had a business, I also had a part time job. My part time job was funding my business, so I didn’t pay on net or gross–I paid on increase. That made sense to me and I am still comfortable with that. (I shut down the business too, because I wasn’t making “increase”.)
I agree with Tom–don’t think of it as a tax. Pay what you think the Lord expects. Worrying about what your neighbor pays is not your problem. Tithing is between your neighbor and the Lord, and it”s none of your business whether the neighbor has money for developing talents or not.
I also agree with SamBee. Many times bad accounting is the problem for most people. The Lord told Joseph that he wouldn’t be good with money, and the Lord was right. However, if you read RSR, you can see that Joseph and his father just made bad decisions about money, and were the cause of most of their problems with money.
mormonheretic wrote:Silent Dawning,
Do you have a problem with the church’s current definition of “pay on your increase” and then you are to decide what it means to you?
I don’t agree that they have said it’s between you and the Lord. I saw a First Presidency letter to that effect (1970), but the personal interpretaton clause never made it into the Handbook of Instructions. They have altered the meaning of increase or ‘interest” as it says in D&C, to mean ‘income” as used in the personal finance literature. President Hunter defined it 10% of “wages” in one talk. Any TBM I talk to draws the line at net income, not surplus.
Quote:You seem more worried about what church leaders think, and I think they’ve been pretty good about saying it’s between you and the Lord. Pay what you think the Lord expects, and quit worrying about what Bishop A says or Bishop B says.
I don’t agree that they have said it’s between you and the Lord. I saw a First Presidency letter to that effect (1970), but the personal interpretaton clause never made it into the Handbook of Instructions. They have altered the meaning of increase or ‘interest” as it says in D&C, to mean ‘income” as used in the personal finance literature. President Hunter
defined it 10% of “wages” in one talk. Any TBM I talk to draws the line at net income, not surplus.
So, I’m happy to view any source that says it’s up to the individual.
Here is a family home evening lessons that says you should pay your tithing first and then pay only part of your other bills if you’re short on cash!
And yes, I am concerned about what leaders and other members think because I fear condemnation if I don’t pay it on gross or net. I’m torn on this one right now. On one hand, I would like the peace from knowing I’m doing the most the Lord might expect (even if I’m wrong). On the other hand, I see the huge quantities of money the Church has, and doesn’t need. And then I see my kids paltry mission and education funds.
I also shudder at the thought of having to ever go to the Church for financial assistance when I might be able to ride out the storm on personal savings, if only I hadn’t given them away in funds the Chuch doesn’t need.
So am I shortchanging the Lord when I lost money on my business, and paid less tithing on my wages from my part-time job? Also, do you think that many with financial difficulties are victims of their own financial mismanagement? I’ve been in several wards that have made it clear that people are free to decide if they pay on net or gross income. Sure there are others that make a stink about gross, but really, if you’re so concerned about how the church spends it’s money, I don’t quite understand why you fear condemnation. It sounds like you’re just as guilty of condemning church expenditures as you are concerned about being condemned about not paying the correct amount. I think you’re in a no-win situation here, and I don’t think you’ll ever come to a happy conclusion unless you can let go of this literalness about gross/net/increase etc.
It seems to me you are more concerned with what men think than what God thinks. I don’t think that is a recipe for happiness or peace about this issue. I’d encourage you go do what Joseph Smith did, and ask God, believing that you shall receive an answer. Whatever the answer is (gross/net/none), stick with it, and don’t let anyone make you feel bad for receiving your own answer to prayer. If you continue to worry what others think, you’ll never be at peace about this.
SD, I respect the indignation you are feeling. James Fowler’s Faith Stage 4 includes a lot of that indignation and feeling of separation. There is a more peaceful place in your future. It isn’t going to involve the church changing a whole lot. But hopefully when you get there you will be sensitive to others who have been disillusioned as you have. Tom Haws wrote:The complete spiritual practice is, of course, to let go of everything. Tithing in any form is just a shadow. Interpreting it in a personally generous way is probably a good thing.
Once again, I’m with Tom. Let go of the need for some sort of legalistic viewpoint. Bread upon the waters, etc.HiJolly
mormonheretic wrote:Also, do you think that many with financial difficulties are victims of their own financial mismanagement?
Some are, definitely. Some have bad luck sometimes — job loss due to downsizing and health problems at the same time, for example. There’s also this belief in the Church that if you disobey the Lord he punishes you. Or that in disobeying laws there will be natural, negative consequences. I find the former reason a bit superstitious, but isnt the gospel as a whole a bit “superstitious” where people attribute things they can’t understand to divine forces?
Quote:It seems to me you are more concerned with what men think than what God thinks. I don’t think that is a recipe for happiness or peace about this issue. I’d encourage you go do what Joseph Smith did, and ask God, believing that you shall receive an answer. Whatever the answer is (gross/net/none), stick with it, and don’t let anyone make you feel bad for receiving your own answer to prayer. If you continue to worry what others think, you’ll never be at peace about this.
Here lies the problem. If you feel you’ve had revelation the “Church is true” then the men and their policies represent what God thinks on the big questions. Tithing is a big question that applies here.
When I’ve had problems with semi-activity throughout my life, it’s been because I separated God from the Church. I stopped believing a lot of the SMA’s because I saw them as motivated by the interests of men, not necessarily divinely inspired policies.
You can look at everything two ways — from the armchair of divine inspiration meant to bless our lives by enobling our character through sacrifice, or from the armchair of manmade interpretation meant primarily to serve their own interests.
Same with tithing — you can look at it as an exercise in faith and self-sacrifice for the good of others if you believe 10% of your gross/net is God’s firm will for you. If you start looking at it as a law that is simply the personal judgment of a few leaders, it introduces all kinds of possible non-divine motives that are easy to ignore or reject.
Worse case scenario — we could look at it this way — we have no knowledge of how the funds are used — could it be the people at the top really do get paid large sums of money to fund a well-above average lifestyle, and perpetuate the 10% of gross/net to continue funding Church operations because they benefit pesonally from the tithing funds generated? Given our belief against priestcraft, is this the reason the books are closed?
Regarding prayer about the issue– that’s what I’m doing now. I still feel torn and I think it’s partly the 20 years of talks and constant harping about it from a TBM standpoint I hear in Church about the definition of an honest tithe — 10% of net or gross. I never hear “it’s up to you” what you pay — ever — it’s always “pay an honest tithe”, and often, expressions of condemnation if you take shortcuts with your tithing by doing anything less than the SMA of 10% net/gross.
I feel the angst disappear when I think of paying on surplus after obeying the commandments of self-reliance, as well as putting money away for Church activities such as missions. However, in the back of my mind, I wonder if I’m going to get an eternal slap in the future because i’ve deviated from the cultural norm of 10% of net/gross.
As people have said, the truth is slippery when you rely on prayer — I’ll never be sure if the Lord is telling me 10% of my defined surplus is right or if I’m just being a natural man. I’ve had big revelations about whether to join the Church, but on smaller matters like this, so far, nothing definitive.
Silent Dawning, I noticed you ignored my first question (probably for the sake of my feelings.) I’m a tough guy. Can you give me your opinion about my situation? Am I right or wrong in my tithing practice? (Yes, I am asking you to judge; I think it may be a bit therapeutic for you to work out your feelings on a situation that is not so personal to you.) mormonheretic wrote:So am I shortchanging the Lord when I lost money on my business, and paid less tithing on my wages from my part-time job?
I didn’t answer the question previously because I agreed with it….
I see nothing wrong with this. Howard Hunter have a talk and mentioned that if you have a business, the amount to be tithed is the amount after expenses. So, if you have a business, and a part-time job, and your business generates a loss, then bring 10% of that loss into “income” this year. This “tithing loss” can then figure into your overall financial picture. And if it wipes out the tithing you would’ve owed on your part-time work, then fine.
SilentDawning wrote:I’m still in the throes of this whole tithing question, in spite of what I may have said earlier. My feelings keep changing on it.
I read this article:
Where GB Hinckley commented on the mall the Church purchased. This was to revitalize the area around the Salt Lake Temple. He commented that no tithing funds were used to buy the mall area, and that the land on which the mall is built belongs to the Church. All funds used were from commercial entities owned by the Church.
My question here is — where did the funds come from to buy the commercial entities? Or the land on which the mall stands? At some point, donations from the members had to be used to make the initial investment in these commerical entities which fund the further business interests of the Church….
Yes I have always thought it was rather deceptive to claim that non tithing funds are used to fund church ventures. Those funds would never have existed if original tithing dollars had not been used in the first place. The investment income should not be distinguishable form tithing donations. The church expects me to pay tithing on my investment income, so they should treat their investment income just as though it is tithing. I really see no difference other than a way to massage the feeling of the members.
Quote:I feel the angst disappear when I think of paying on surplus after obeying the commandments of self-reliance, as well as putting money away for Church activities such as missions. However, in the back of my mind, I wonder if I’m going to get an eternal slap in the future because i’ve deviated from the cultural norm of 10% of net/gross.
As people have said, the truth is slippery when you rely on prayer — I’ll never be sure if the Lord is telling me 10% of my defined surplus is right or if I’m just being a natural man. I’ve had big revelations about whether to join the Church, but on smaller matters like this, so far, nothing definitive.
This seems to me like the heart of the matter, a gut-level tension, a feeling of uncertainty about making these kinds of decisions on our own. I think all of us here go through this over and over. I know I do. It might be on tithing or something else. We may never be completely free from this experience. The solution IMO though is to really become comfortable with our decisions. At some point, there isn’t going to be an authority figure that will approve, that we can hang the responsibility on — NOT EVEN GOD. I find that too sometimes, no clear answer even from prayer
We simply have to decide or explore and figure it out. Our feelings and intuition (aka the Holy Spirit) will be our guide. Then we have to be OK with the fact we are doing the best that we can with the brain, heart and wisdom God has given us.
Brian Johnston wrote:Quote:I feel the angst disappear when I think of paying on surplus after obeying the commandments of self-reliance, as well as putting money away for Church activities such as missions. However, in the back of my mind, I wonder if I’m going to get an eternal slap in the future because i’ve deviated from the cultural norm of 10% of net/gross.
As people have said, the truth is slippery when you rely on prayer — I’ll never be sure if the Lord is telling me 10% of my defined surplus is right or if I’m just being a natural man. I’ve had big revelations about whether to join the Church, but on smaller matters like this, so far, nothing definitive.
This seems to me like the heart of the matter, a gut-level tension, a feeling of uncertainty about making these kinds of decisions on our own. I think all of us here go through this over and over. I know I do. It might be on tithing or something else. We may never be completely free from this experience. The solution IMO though is to really become comfortable with our decisions. At some point, there isn’t going to be an authority figure that will approve, that we can hang the responsibility on — NOT EVEN GOD. I find that too sometimes, no clear answer even from prayer
We simply have to decide or explore and figure it out. Our feelings and intuition (aka the Holy Spirit) will be our guide. Then we have to be OK with the fact we are doing the best that we can with the brain, heart and wisdom God has given us.
And this IS the heart of the matter. No one on this discussion forum can tell me what decision is correct.
I think that deep down, I may even want validation from others that the specific path I eventually choose is somehow “OK”. However, ultimately, that still won’t be enough to make me feel good about it. To feel good about a decision to define tithing as something less than 10% of gross or net, I would have to have overwhelming peace from God, or to simply come up with my own reasons/rationalizations that I convince myself are OK. And I’ll never be sure if I’m right, or if, when I stand before God He says “You had your wife, the GA’s and talks in Church about what a full tithe means, and you decided to cut back your tithing in spite of it — so — out you go — you’re not fit for my Kindgom”.
I would like to be able to say “but when you look at the landscape of my life, those funds I didn’t pay went to other worthy causes, such as my son’s mission, my daughter’s schooling, to get out of debt, and a contingency fund to sustain self-reliance in case I became sick or disabled. All these things are worthy goals and consistent with Your mission.
Also, I found the doctrine shifted and changed so many times to the point it wasn’t clear that 10% of gross/net was an inspired mandate or simply the juddgment of men.
And You also said you’d rather we gave willingly or not at all. I gave what I gave willingly….
And further, I came to this conclusion after studying the question out in my mind. I took my decision to you, and felt nothing. So, I went ahead on the basis of what I thought was best.
Further, the question of tithing was interefering with my peace of being an active member of Your church, and in defining tithing in a way that speaks to my mind and my inner peace was how I continued my activity — to the benefit of my children, my marriage and my descendents”
Sadly, I’ll only know if that washes when the day of accountability comes. If it does as it relates to tithing.
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