- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Quote:
This is off-topic, but has anyone ever considered “Degrees of Glory” using different definitions of the word “degree”? If it has to do with temperature, I don’t want the highest… give me something in the middle, 70’s would be nice. If it has to do with angles, I guess I’ll take obtuse… maybe there would be more room.
Maybe it has to do with how you scored in seminary. You can only enter the degree program if you’ve done your paper and the head of department approves.
SilentDawning wrote:Can you be baptized, stay active in the Church, and obey all the commandments except tithing, and still be saved in the lowest level of the celestial kingdom, without eternal increase? Or is this another one of those “open to interpretation” — “can’t be answered” questions?
Here is my source, D&C 131:
Quote:1–4, Celestial marriage is essential to exaltation in the highest heaven; 5–6, How men are sealed up unto eternal life; 7–8, All spirit is matter.
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
Comments welcome.
I checked a few sources. The Book of Mormon describes the baptismal covenant in detail in a couple places — it gives a general “keep the commandments” but doesn’t explicitly mention tithing.
Preach My Gospel, however, lists the baptismal interview questions, and one of them is “Are you willing to live the law of tithing” or something similar. So, now my question again — does that baptismal interview question constitute doctrine as to what it means to keep the baptismal convenant? My answer is No, given the article on what constitutes doctrine. For that question to be doctrine, it would have to be accepted by the Church.
So, taken with the other discussion we’ve had, I think one should be paying tithing of some kind for membership in the Church, but it’s not clear that it’s a requirement for the lowest level of the celestial kingdom.
Someone asked “Why target anything but the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom?”. I have a lot of reasons. One gentleman I knew didn’t want to even get baptized because he didn’t want to be sealed to his wife for eternity. His marriage was one of toleration and for his children. He said he would rather take something less than have to live with her for eternity. And he felt that in getting baptized he would then be pressured to do the temple marriage eventually, and didn’t want to have to buy into that part of our religion.
Another reason for me is the lack of clarity about what life will actually be in the celestial kingdom.
I participated in another thread once about what life will be like in the Celestial Kingdom. Some said ALL of our time will be dedicated in service to others. The thought of that makes me shudder right now because I need personal time. So, there really isn’t a lot to go on about whether the CK is even a desireable place for me right now — at least, not at the highest level. Also, I see eternal increase as a managerial sort of leadership position — with vision, creation, monitoring, controlling, assessing, etcetera — and quite frankly, while that interested me years ago, I have no interest in it now.
Granted, I have no idea how I’ll feel in a buzzillion years from now, or how I’ll feel when I actually know what life in the CK is like….
fwiw I have reservations about sealing two of my grandparents, especially considering one of them appears to have taken great glee in an adulterous affair. Silent Dawning, I was the one that asked why one would target a lower kingdom. Quote:One gentleman I knew didn’t want to even get baptized because he didn’t want to be sealed to his wife for eternity. His marriage was one of toleration and for his children. He said he would rather take something less than have to live with her for eternity.
In reference to polygamy, Ray has said several times that he believes that we will only be sealed to people willingly. I can’t imagine that God would force us to be sealed to someone we didn’t want to live with for eternity. On the one hand, I admire someone that will stay married for the sake of the children, but on the other hand, if one really has a terrible marriage, then there are counselors, books, and programs that can help. I posted twice on the topic of Marriage Fitness on my blog a while back. I think it has some good suggestions, but a successful marriage requires effort from both parties. See
http://www.mormonheretic.org/?s=marriage+fitness mormonheretic wrote:Silent Dawning, I was the one that asked why one would target a lower kingdom.
Quote:One gentleman I knew didn’t want to even get baptized because he didn’t want to be sealed to his wife for eternity. His marriage was one of toleration and for his children. He said he would rather take something less than have to live with her for eternity.
In reference to polygamy, Ray has said several times that he believes that we will only be sealed to people willingly. I can’t imagine that God would force us to be sealed to someone we didn’t want to live with for eternity. On the one hand, I admire someone that will stay married for the sake of the children, but on the other hand, if one really has a terrible marriage, then there are counselors, books, and programs that can help. I posted twice on the topic of Marriage Fitness on my blog a while back. I think it has some good suggestions, but a successful marriage requires effort from both parties. See
http://www.mormonheretic.org/?s=marriage+fitness If what I hear you saying is correct — the man could get sealed for eternity and then simply repudiate his sealing at some later point in his eternal journey. I don’t think the average person wanting to act with integrity would do this. Plus, it creates a whole “legalistic” barrier to moving on to a better situation later on in one’s life — particularly if he was planning to leave his wife after the kids are grown. If he meets someone and wants to be sealed, he has a big sealing cancellation process to go through…..
I’m also interested in what people have to say about the idea that you can go to the CK without paying tithing….
Quote:If what I hear you saying is correct . . .
Nope, that’s not even close to what I believe. I am on vacation checking in from a library, but I will try to clarify in a separate thread at some point.
This is something uppermost in my mind as I have just received a substantial amount of money from an inheritance. Not a fortune, but enough to make me go “ouch” when handing over the 10%… because the 10% in this case is the kind of money I’ve been scrambling around for all this time. As I said on another thread, I’m heading off for a week, which will give me some time to chew over it.
SamBee wrote:This is something uppermost in my mind as I have just received a substantial amount of money from an inheritance. Not a fortune, but enough to make me go “ouch” when handing over the 10%… because the 10% in this case is the kind of money I’ve been scrambling around for all this time.
These are the great moments when tithing has some teaching potential for us, IMO.I recently consulted with an attorney over some financial matters and by federal standards $100.00/mo. was the national average amount paid as charitable/religious contribution. If you really want to look at it biblically/religiously you should be willing to give all to God as he has given you everything. Without sounding too snarky the church should be doing the same.
$50-$1000 per month is more than reasonable to give to the Church in total donations per month depending on income in the western world. I think this is a personal matter that really ought to be resolved personally. I will however state this. Growing up there were arguments between my parents as to what was the proper amount given to tithing. We were very poor and ten percent whether gross or net was more than we could afford as a family.
It IS the Church’s responsibility to honor the family structure and family unit. If tithing causes a financial strain on a family then I believe this is a great sin upon the hands of those in the Church who would demand a strict payment as such. Furthermore financial problems are one of the biggest problems contributing to divorce.
I will not say that we shouldn’t give to the church. I do believe however that the Church has no right to require one to pay tithing as a measurement of good standing if they are unwilling to clearly define the measure required to do so. They should also disclose how WE the body of the church is spending the money. If the Church will not give a set requirement OFFICIALLY, not as some arbitrary CULTURAL CUSTOM, then the responsibility to determine the amount of tithing paid should be determined by the same vague method.
If the paying of tithing is a vague commandment then it should be followed vaguely and therefore by the letter of the law is fulfilled.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.