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Recently my parents divorced after 30 years of marriage. I believe a major contributor to their eventual divorce is they never learned how to manage money prudently and were nearly constantly under financial pressure. For almost 30 years they did everything they needed to have a temple recommend, but did nothing to become more self-reliant. With money problems being the leading cause of divorce, I think the church could really help a lot of people by emphasizing self-reliance as much as other church standards like tithing, church attendance, and keeping the Word of Wisdom. In church lessons and sacrament meeting talks it is often taught that tithing should be paid no matter what, and should be paid before anything else. Here are some reasons I question this teaching:
- • The apostle Paul taught that offerings should not be given of necessity, but from our heart (2 Corinthians 9:7). Requiring tithes to be in considered in good-standing in the church complicates our motives for giving.
• The tithes that a widow ,or father struggling to make ends meet, gives in part is used to provide mission presidents and other GA’s with very comfortable lifestyles. I understand that the church has a welfare program to help the widows and struggling families in times of need; however, welfare decisions are very subjective and it can be a demeaning experience to seek help from the bishop.
• Early LDS apostles excused themselves from the requirements of tithing.
• The burden of a tithe on income (net or gross) can be vastly different. Why not tithe on income after necessary expenses? Here are some examples of how 10% of income can be experienced differently:
- o business owners are can minimize tithing by making as many expenses as possible business related (e.g., vacations that conveniently require some business, cars that are used both for personal and business use, keeping money in the business and building equity)
o someone with greater necessities, like medical bills, will pay relatively more tithing than someone else who does not have those unavoidable expenses
I would like to see more emphasis placed on avoiding debt, getting out of debt, living conservatively, and saving for the future. I think more marriages would be saved and people would be in a better position to give from their hearts if they did. Instead of being asked in a temple recommend interview “Are you a full-tithe payer?”, I would like to be asked “Do you diligently strive to be self-reliant by avoiding debt where possible and saving for the future, and do you give cheerfully?” I could get behind that change. Some people would love to see the TR interview changed to one question: Quote:Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?
I agree with much of what you say, but . . . Quote:I would like to see more emphasis placed on avoiding debt, getting out of debt, living conservatively, and saving for the future.
That principle is taught actively and directly in the Church. Many members don’t live it, but it’s not because it isn’t being taught.
I agree that paying tithing no matter what gets more emphasis than overall money management and real self sufficiency. I sometimes cringe at tithing talks in SM and sometimes think we emphasize it more than more important gospel principles. I also wanted to point out that the money used to pay GAs does not come directly from tithing but from the church’s business ventures. I know the argument is made that at some point the money put into such ventures was tithing, but that appears to have been quite some time ago – before most of us were tithe payers. I do wish the church was more open about finances and that they were more upfront about the fact that GAs are indeed paid, but there is another thread about that.
I agree with everything in the opening post. Check Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. He has several baby steps that individuals should go through in order to be financially self reliant. He advocated giving generously after you have developed a reserve for hard times, pay down a certain amount of consumer debt and also safe for your college funds. I also think it’s egocentric for the church to demand tithing in order to be a member in good standing. Granted if we benefit from the experience of being a Mormon we should give something but to mandate a set percent, often of gross income is invasive in my view. Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
SD, tithing as a tenth is not just a Mormon concept. Just saying. Old-Timer wrote:SD, tithing as a tenth is not just a Mormon concept. Just saying.
Yes, I acknowledge that, but to require a fixed percent on exchange for being a member in good standing, is something I object to. Particularly when many GA’s define it as 10% of gross — the maximum figure on which it could be based.
Dave Ramsey is also a Christian and supports paying a religious tithe, although he encourages attaining self reliance first and obviously doesn’t try to define exactly what the tithe means for everyone. I like that the First Presidency’s final word on tithing is that the exact amount is up to the individual, and that the temple recommend question is a yes-no question. My bishop doesn’t even look at the tithing statements—he just takes your word for it. I would hate for the church to get into the business of trying to make people prove they were paying according to any given formula. I do wish leaders and members both would quit teaching that tithing is on gross when that’s not the First Presidency’s actual position. I struggle paying bills and having enough money to buy what we need. The amount my wife and I pay in tithing would make a huge difference. I recently showed her the How is tithing calculatedRegarding the 1970 First Presidency letter, saying that “interest” is “understood to mean income” is quite a loose interpretation, so I’m okay interpreting “income” as “disposable income.”
Shawn wrote:I struggle paying bills and having enough money to buy what we need. The amount my wife and I pay in tithing would make a huge difference. I recently showed her the
How is tithing calculatedRegarding the 1970 First Presidency letter, saying that “interest” is “understood to mean income” is quite a loose interpretation, so I’m okay interpreting “income” as “disposable income.”
thanks for sharing. I know this is a bridge I have to cross at some point before too long with my wife.Old Timer wrote:I agree with much of what you say, but . . .
Quote:I would like to see more emphasis placed on avoiding debt, getting out of debt, living conservatively, and saving for the future.
That principle is taught actively and directly in the Church. Many members don’t live it, but it’s not because it isn’t being taught.
I agree that it is taught in church. I hear it in regular church meetings as well as GC. Some people need more direction with money issues than others though and just hearing it isn’t always enough. There are plenty of resources out there if you need more direction. The Dave Ramsey one mentioned is good.
unsure wrote:Some people need more direction with money issues than others though and just hearing it isn’t always enough.
The Seventh Day Adventist church has a financial planner whose services are free to members. I assume that he would encourage payment of a tithe and also would be happy to arrange some sort of donation to the church in the last will and testament. Still, Having church members meet with a financial planner could have huge benefits for the independence level (self-reliance) of the congregation.
Roy wrote:unsure wrote:Some people need more direction with money issues than others though and just hearing it isn’t always enough.
The Seventh Day Adventist church has a financial planner whose services are free to members. I assume that he would encourage payment of a tithe and also would be happy to arrange some sort of donation to the church in the last will and testament. Still, Having church members meet with a financial planner could have huge benefits for the independence level (self-reliance) of the congregation.
We used to have a member of our ward who would provide free financial advice/financial planning to members. He even taught a few classes and did at least one fifth Sunday presentation. The bishop also regularly referred people who had difficulty managing their money to him for help in planning and implementing a budget. Of course, he was the exception rather than the rule.
When I was in a Melchizedek priesthood group presidency (the unit was too small for two quorums) the president and I would go to the homes of people that had been on church financial assistance for a while to teach them some principles of budgeting and financial planning. I’m not sure how I feel about that. There’s a difference between soliciting help and receiving unsolicited help.
Blessings come through faith. Faith is believing something so strongly you are willing to act and do things, even sacrifice, for the cause. If you honestly in your heart don’t believe it will make a difference if you pay on gross or another calculation…then that is your belief and faith…so stick to that and the blessings are there from where your heart is…not the size of the donations.
Do what feels right to you. Pay attention to how you feel.
Do experiments and for a while pay tithing on disposable income, and see if you notice any difference in the blessings in your life or the closeness to god. If no difference…then good, go with it. If there is a difference in how you feel, pay attention to it.
Experiment on the words that are taught to us. Find out what is meaningful to you and your family.
It goes beyond budgets and financial calculations. It is an exercise in faith and belief. There is no right or wrong answer.
- • The apostle Paul taught that offerings should not be given of necessity, but from our heart (2 Corinthians 9:7). Requiring tithes to be in considered in good-standing in the church complicates our motives for giving.
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