- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
jmb275 wrote:
Why is it required? How about so that the church can maintain a steady flow of income to build temples, meeting houses, and, oh yeah, shopping malls (yes, I know no tithing funds were used, but if they have that kind of money how about putting it toward what tithing goes to and giving us a break during rough economic times? I guess that’s not the Lord’s way right?)! I mean why not make it optional (and still be able to attend the temple)? What would be the downside?
no need to apologize about cynacism…these questions are valid. I still wonder at what point it became mandatory and not optional like other religions. I mean, if it is all about faith and where your heart is, does paying tithing while cursing having to pay tithing really going to bring me blessings? I’m not sure I see what the downside of it being voluntary would be. Somewhere it is just a thing the church teaches and sees no reason to go back on it…instead it is something of benefit to the church, and beneficial to teaching people to live the principle rather than backing off of it and making it voluntary.dcharles wrote:By contrast there are many people who devoutly follow their religion, whatever that may be, that barely get by.
Besides that, doing something for personal benefit or material gain misses the point entirely. We should do these things out of love and thanksgiving towards God without expectation of recognition or reward. It’s all about acting selflessly, not selfishly.
I agree with the principle and the thought is a good one…be unselfish and it will benefit your life and help remind you to not be overly dependant on worldly things. But you know what, fasting helps teach that too…and paying fast offerings does that too…but no one asks me about that when I seek a temple recommend.After reading David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, I think the truth lies somewhere in the fact that when the church went through serious financial times, the leaders thought what they could do, and pushed to increase tithing revenues to get them out of that mess. And it has worked and continues to work…for the church to be financially well off. Is that not selfish of church leaders and the church? Why should I be taught to live unselfishly when I’m in financial hard times when the church seems to do what it needs to under hard times?
My studies on tithing are still missing the big reason why it is mandatory for me as a mormon, other than it just is based on leadership statements. Focusing on the princples and devotion to God are encouraging to me this is a good thing to do, but seeing the church policy of requiring it of me is not encouraging. Clearly something that seems to create a problem for me as I let go of guilt for strict obedience, and want to focus more on direct relationship with God and seeking His approval of my life and where my heart is.
I believe in paying a generous (I’m avoiding the word “strict”) tithing as a spiritual practice and a reminder I’m not to grasp the things of the world. I don’t always pay it to the church. But it’s always to charitable places. In my mind, it’s better to share and beg than to scrape, scrimp, horde, and not beg. In my mind and heart, life’s about sharing with each other and being at each other’s and heaven’s mercy.
Tom Haws wrote:I believe in paying a generous (I’m avoiding the word “strict”) tithing as a spiritual practice and a reminder I’m not to grasp the things of the world. I don’t always pay it to the church. But it’s always to charitable places.
In my mind, it’s better to share and beg than to scrape, scrimp, horde, and not beg. In my mind and heart, life’s about sharing with each other and being at each other’s and heaven’s mercy.
Tom,I totally respect your practicing it this way…I think you have the vision of what it is all about. But does it not bother you then, when the church teaches:
Quote:No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of “They can’t afford to” needs to be replaced with “They can’t afford not to.”
One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing. The bishop can help them with their food and other basic needs until they become self-reliant.
We just had this lesson yesterday in gospel essentials class. My understanding of tithing is that it comes from a “seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you” place. I also think that understanding that all that we have are God’s anyway and so the 1/10th is only giving back to God in gratitude for what has already been given. If one is paying tithing to get blessings, I don’t think they really understand the law or purpose of the law sufficiently. But in the same breath, if one is exercizing faith in God then God himself said to prove him on the thing.
Well, the bible is where we got the whole 1/10 of your interest thing. I think JSmith got the first modern commandments on the law but I think most tithing was paid from crops or animals as it was an agragarian society. (D&C 119) I think (might be getting this wrong) it was Joseph F. Smith who made it official in that the church would no longer ask for donations publically, but that each member would give according to their conscience. This may have been when they started doing fast offerings formally too. And I think tithing is what supports the church (kingdom of God) and fast offerings is just another way of giving to the poor and needy. All FO’s go to the temporal needs of the ward members and those in the community and so that is why the amount isn’t defined. It is up to us how generous we choose to be. ( I love the book “Les Mis” for this reason. Taught me alot about being generous to the pour) I think this is also why it isn’t part of the recommend interview. If one can’t give but wants to give, then why should they be kept from the temple blessings?
I have often heard stories of people who are having financial difficulty being encouraged by their leaders to still pay tithing. I think this is an act of faith or trusting God instead of the arm of the flesh and designed to keep the windows of heaven open as people learn to restructure their financial stewardships. My one friends had the ward pay their mortgage while they paid tithing too. I think the church wants us to stay obedient because they believe that blessings follow obedience.
But as with anything in the church, nothing is compulsory. We obey according to our wills…..we comply with the 10% thing accordingly as well and blessings come accordingly. I suppose that paying a partial tith is something. But God is the one who set up the 1/10 standard, so any I would think you would need to take up any variance with Him. Anytime one sacrifices in this way, I think there is much growth in terms of faith and gratitude and generousity. I think it keeps us humble too. Money does tend to warp people senses sometimes.
Poppyseed wrote:But as with anything in the church, nothing is compulsory. We obey according to our wills…..we comply with the 10% thing accordingly as well and blessings come accordingly. I suppose that paying a partial tith is something. But God is the one who set up the 1/10 standard, so any I would think you would need to take up any variance with Him. Anytime one sacrifices in this way, I think there is much growth in terms of faith and gratitude and generousity. I think it keeps us humble too. Money does tend to warp people senses sometimes.
Thank you for the post. It certainly is a thing of faith, which I need to be reminded of. I’m not sure I can expect many of the blessings promised if other areas of my life are also not in harmony with God’s will for me-my heart needs to be in it of the right reasons. It is not an investment or an insurance policy, it is an outward sign of how grateful we are for what we have, and how much faith we have in being willing to do something even when difficult.This is like many other parts that (IMO) have helped the church continue to move forward and grow over the decades, because sometimes the things church leaders do and say about these subjects makes you wonder if it is really for God or if it is just for the benefit of people trying to do things in the church, like show how many buildings they can make under a certain leadership regime to show statistical success for a leader. But at the end of the day, it is still a virtuous practice that it will benefit me and my family by living it…and therefore, I can StayLDS and live these principles, even if I am bothered by some actions of mortals in the church. If it is good for me and my relationship to God…it is a good thing and I thank the church for giving me an opportunity to live it.
jeriboy wrote:A few years ago my bishop called me in to ask why I suddenly started paying tithing since I did not go to church.
My reply was that I needed my sales to start closing at a better rate than they had been and I knew that paying tithing would likely do the trick. I admitted it was a purely selfish act, and that my sales had indeed improved. He laughed, said OK get out of here.
I have since learned that God being the god of all people, rewards everyone of all faiths who pay tithing with the same blessings we receive.
You know what? I’ll bet he even answers their prayers.
If paying tithing guarantees rewards, why do so many faithful members go bankrupt? Utah–the highest percentage of Mormons in the country–has led the nation in bankruptcy filings frequently over the last decade. I know some of these people personally, and they face a catch-22 when they follow all the Church instructions: pay 10%, try not to have mom work, multiply and replenish the earth, avoid debt; it makes it very difficult for people that don’t have good paying jobs. If you are in a situation where you barely pay your bills, with no money leftover, should you still pay tithing? The Church is worth billions of dollars, they can get by if the truly poor members can’t pay. Should a family skip paying bills to pay tithing? Should good faithful, devout, active members that really can’t pay tithing be denied a TR?
wordsleuth23 wrote:If paying tithing guarantees rewards, why do so many faithful members go bankrupt? Utah–the highest percentage of Mormons in the country–has led the nation in bankruptcy filings frequently over the last decade. I know some of these people personally, and they face a catch-22 when they follow all the Church instructions: pay 10%, try not to have mom work, multiply and replenish the earth, avoid debt; it makes it very difficult for people that don’t have good paying jobs. If you are in a situation where you barely pay your bills, with no money leftover, should you still pay tithing? The Church is worth billions of dollars, they can get by if the truly poor members can’t pay. Should a family skip paying bills to pay tithing? Should good faithful, devout, active members that really can’t pay tithing be denied a TR?
Here’s some interesting points about Utah bankruptcy:There’s no simple explanation, financial experts say.
* Some point to obvious factors: Utah’s per-capita income ranks 45th in the nation. Its families, many of them part of the Mormon faith, are larger than those in other states. The job market is weak. The cost of living is relatively high.
* The state is also the nation’s youngest — the median age is 27.1, compared to 35.3 nationally — and its birth rate is the highest. That means fewer workers are supporting more people.
* Experts say it may be that people in Utah are living closer to the financial edge, so they struggle when hard times or a crisis arrives.
* “Most of the time, the problem arises not because of wild consumerism, but because something really bad happens,” said Darren Bush, an economist and law professor at the University of Utah.
Mormons less likely to file for bankruptcyAccording to a 2007 study published in the Suffolk University Law Review:
Cultural characteristics often attributed to Mormons and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not account for Utah’s bankruptcy rates. In fact, certain aspects of this culture, such as [Church] employment services and [Church] welfare, may even be shielding Mormons from the full brunt of Utah’s current bankruptcy environment.
In a Deseret News interview with the study’s authors, one of them noted:
Quote:Our findings show that all Utahns, including Mormons, are suffering from an enormous bankruptcy glut, but Mormons are not experiencing it any more than any other Utahn. Our data reveal that in Utah non-Mormons are 4.6 percent more likely than their Mormon counterparts to find themselves in bankruptcy court.
Again, I am not sure Tithing is more than a spiritual/faith-based thing, and may not have much to do with financial blessings or financial woes. Bankruptcy in Utah is an complicated issue.
Those stats are fascinating. Thanks. Two more interesting things:
1) Utah has laws that make it easy for creditors to garnish wages faster than many other states – which leads to people filing for bankruptcy earlier in a financial difficulty than in many other states.
2) Utah has a larger number of small businesses than most other states (even when MLM schemes are removed from the equation) – and small businesses fail at a higher rate than any other type. Heavy financial losses in such endeavors cause many people to file bankruptcy when business creditors get ready to garnish wages.
I know this thread isn’t about Utah bankruptcies, but the issue is not a simple one. If there is one “Mormon” connection, it might be over-confidence and a belief that “God won’t let me fail” – but the stats in the previous comment argue against it being a uniquely Mormon problem.
Old-Timer wrote:
I know this thread isn’t about Utah bankruptcies, but the issue is not a simple one. If there is one “Mormon” connection, it might be over-confidence and a belief that “God won’t let me fail” – but the stats in the previous comment argue against it being a uniquely Mormon problem.Perfectly said Ray. By citing bankruptcies, I was trying to point out the fact that tithing isn’t a guarantee of financial success. Also, I was questioning/wondering whether really poor Church members should have to pay tithing to go to the temple, if they can’t pay both their bills and their tithing.
If someone believes in the principle of tithing, I think they should pay it and let the Church pay the bills they can’t as a result with Fast Offering funds and/or provide them food so they don’t have to buy groceries. Old-Timer wrote:If someone believes in the principle of tithing, I think they should pay it and let the Church pay the bills they can’t as a result with Fast Offering funds and/or provide them food so they don’t have to buy groceries.
In theory, that sounds nice, but Bishops have a lot of discretion in this area, and not all Bishops are see peoples finances the same way.
Heber13 wrote:But does it not bother you then, when the church teaches:
Quote:No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of “They can’t afford to” needs to be replaced with “They can’t afford not to.”
One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing. The bishop can help them with their food and other basic needs until they become self-reliant.
I wouldn’t consider debt an auto writeoff from tithes, debt is a bondage you willingly placed yourself under.
quietblue wrote:I wouldn’t consider debt an auto writeoff from tithes,
debt is a bondage you willingly placed yourself under.
Considering the fact that one of the leading causes of debt in our country is medically related–often due to catastrophic events–the use of the term “willing” seems careless. Besides, in cases where someone willingly got in debt, the still have the obligation of paying their creditors if at all possible. If someone has to choose to pay a debt or tithing, I think the honest/honorable thing to do is pay the debt.
Who says tithing has to be paid with money anyway? If a person doesn’t have cash, they can pay some other way. And I know that anyone who receives help from the bishop is required to pay it forward by giving a certain number of hours to the bishop’s storehouse, for example.
I don’t think missionaries should hesitate to teach the law of tithing. The law is for the soul, not for the portfolio. If I were poor I might be offended. How dare you think that because I don’t have money that I don’t have faith?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
