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I no longer believe paying the church is really what God most cares about. Like wordsleuth, I believe tithing is just a revenue generator for the church, it has its purpose, but is not the most critical thing in life.
I feel the same way. I have never thought God cares about tithing more than anything else, and I have never viewed it as the most critical thing in life. I can’t stand the “fire insurance” description – truly and deeply loathe that phrase. It’s WAY down on the priority list, if I were to start listing them one-by-one – but it is on the list of important things for me.
Disclaimer: Sometimes my faith side posts and other times my doubting Thomas. I apologize if my posts seem more like a ping pong match than a cohesive perspective. 
When I read Hebers last post, I wanted to say “me too” because right now the air conditioner is on the fritz to the tune of $1000 and I am just happy I have $2 in my purse to buy milk if we need it.
Paying tithing is one of those things that defies logic sometimes. And right now for me, I must say I doubt that I won’t prolong my financial situation if I continue to pay it. Or if I suspended my payments for a time, couldn’t I catch up and meet some of my financial goals faster? I have to search my heart on this. I think in some ways I pay tithing because I feel I have some measure of vision on the concept. Other times I feel like the Adam thing and just do it because God said to do so and trust Him as He knows my needs before I ask. I think right now, I am choosing to experiment on this obedience thing. Maybe I am doing it because I am afraid of God a little bit. What will He let happen if I don’t pay. (I have never really lapsed in tithing through out my life but I kinda want to now). If I could honestly within myself be convinced that this was an earthly way for the church to get money, then I wouldn’t feel an ounce of guilt by not paying. But I know the origins of this came long before JSmith did.
Right now I am choosing to pay and even though my doubt and logic are there together, I am choosing to put all my energies to supporting my faith instead. I wonder sometimes if it isn’t the payment of the tithe that God rewards, but the stretching of ourselves out of fear and into the hope of the light. Or maybe all of this is just my LDS brain washing. I thought that for a long time. But I don’t think so anymore. I am siding on faith now.
Poppyseed wrote:Paying tithing is one of those things that defies logic sometimes. And right now for me, I must say I doubt that I won’t prolong my financial situation if I continue to pay it.
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I think right now, I am choosing to experiment on this obedience thing. Maybe I am doing it because I am afraid of God a little bit. What will He let happen if I don’t pay. (I have never really lapsed in tithing through out my life but I kinda want to now). If I could honestly within myself be convinced that this was an earthly way for the church to get money, then I wouldn’t feel an ounce of guilt by not paying.
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I am siding on faith now.
Please, please, PLEASE don’t stop paying your tithing, Poppyseed! What a great post you gave, and an excellent example of your strength and your faith! I respect your for that. I’m jealous of you for that.I wish I still had that same faith and strength to view it that way…perhaps with a little more effort, I can gain that back.
I guess I wanted to just say that my path may be different than your path. I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” on it…but I want you to follow your heart, and me to figure out what the heck my heart wants to do about it. And then let’s share our experiences. We may find there is a right way and you knew it all along.
I hope my comments don’t influence you away from something you know in your heart you should do, and something you know God knows you know.
Thank you for your example of being willing to stand up and post your differing views on the subject. I need to hear those as well. I think that is the value of this community. Everyone “worshipping how, where and what they may”! Siding on faith is the way to go!!
Heber….Please don’t worry that you said something wrong. I think you unearthed a feeling inside of me that needed further examination. If I am to move forward and to feel good about my direction, I have to be honest about these little concerns that bubble up. And so far, I am doing better on not letting my doubt feelings determine my choices so much. So, in my mind you did me a service. And I felt safe enough to share it here. It seems some days my feelings about the church are all over the place. And so far, no one has told me I was a hypocrite or that I wasn’t “spiritual” like I am sure would happen on other message boards. I think I am following my heart and maybe for the first time in a long time, I am feeling like I am getting somewhere more peaceful. Rix » 12 Aug 2009, 10:29 Quote:HiJolly wrote:
Wordsleuth23,
…”Doubt not, but be believing”. You choose not to. OK. Your comments are the natural result of this.
I think it might be helpful to point out that most of us here “doubt” some things about the functioning of the church. I don’t think we would be on this forum if we didn’t. I find that each of us have peeled layers off the totally literal, perfect church that we were brought up to believe in. Many here are naturalists, secularists, and even atheists…but continue to believe that the LDS culture may offer some benefits for various reasons.
So I am just saying that (IMHO) any comments regarding the teachings of the church are fair play, and I don’t see the benefit of criticizing another’s take on the possible lack of perfect inspiration/revelation from God regarding the ascribed “commandments.”
But maybe that’s just me….
I have grown accustomed to analizing my feelings while they are happening, and for some strange reason while reading Rix’s thread, I had a very good feeling, but it was because my view was almost the exact opposite of his. That does not seem strange to me that a whisper from the spirit can come about in many ways. When I hear stories of a family who has a son in the mission field and the father talks to his wife about all the things they will do with the money when their son comes home, and when he does the money dries up. I have never been able to convince a non-believer that such stories are common place in the church. This is a church of miracles, but without a testimony it will not be recognized as such. I will be the first to agree that a testimony colors our perception of every aspect of the church, from it’s past to the present. A person with a testimoy watch’s over it like a new born baby, they don’t want that testimony to come to harm. And digging into the past or present can be a rewarding or dangerious exercise. There is a spirit that inhabits every thing we do. Years ago I put on my disco pants to go to church in, there was a degrading feeling about them so I changed. I continue to change, and believe me, I have alot of disco pants that need changing.
Well…it is that time of year again. The signup list has been posted on my Bishop’s door for tithing settlement. I guess I better sign up. I think I am nervous this year, whereas I never have been before.
My bishop brings our whole family in together to teach the principle and talk to us together. I think I should be able to answer all questions in generics like I always have, so it shouldn’t be different.
I don’t know why, but I just feel uneasy about it this year.
Should I try to pre-empt the meeting with a personal meeting that the Bish and I can clear the air on things so he knows how to present it to my kids or just go with the flow?
How does the group prepare to go into the annual interview?
Sorry, Heber, I’m going to thread-jack a little. Hopefully, someone will still answer your question. I have another question. If the wife of a non-member can’t pay tithing (for whatever reason) can she still get a temple recommend?
My DW talked to the bishop yesterday and he told her that she couldn’t. Anyone have this come up?
Swim, from what I know, temple recommends are based on personal worthiness. A wife can get a recommend for what she does, regardless of what her spouse does. If the wife pays tithing on her increase, she can declare full tithe paying. She can’t control the free agency of her spouse to pay or not to pay. She needs to declare full tithe payer status for herself, and if she can’t pay tithing, then the bishop can deny the recommend. If she has no increase to pay, but would pay if she could, she should be able to get a TR. If falls on why she can or cannot pay…regardless if her spouse is paying tithing, not paying tithing, or not a member of the church. Does that answer the question?
Officially, such a woman could be given a temple recommend if she would pay if she could. Unfortunately, too many Bishops are letter of the law thinkers about this, however. I pay a full tithe, and I want my children to do so, so I don’t have a problem at tithing settlement time.
👿 Thanks guys, that definitely clarifies, on all counts. Back to the original point, I can’t remember the last time I attended Tithing Settlement, even when I used to hold a TR. So I guess that answers how I prepare for that battle
Valoel wrote:Back to the original point,
I can’t remember the last time I attended Tithing Settlement, even when I used to hold a TR. So I guess that answers how I prepare for that battle
Exec Secretary called me to setup a tithing settlement this Sunday.I can’t declare full tithe pays this year (first time in my life). I don’t know exactly if I need to go to tithing settlement if that is the case…I have nothing to settle. I also don’t plan to pay it this coming year…until I feel right about it.
I am considering using Valoel’s approach and just not go to the meeting.
Or I wonder if I need to study and understand the principle and re-evaluate.
Does anyone have advice for me on how to handle the situation or what materials I should study in considering my approach to tithing? Any ideas would help. I’ve come across nothing but GC talks that are pretty generic.
One of our new participants asked about tithing – about how everyone here view it. Rather than open a new thread on the topic, I am bumping this one up for more comments – if anyone cares to do so after reading all the comments. Hello, I’m the newbie that caused the bumping. Here’s my story/take. About a year ago a high councilman visited and said if you weren’t paying on gross it wasn’t a full tithe (and talked about gross vs. net blessings and all of that. I was surprised because I had alway paid on net. So I began an investigation trying to find an official position on tithing because I didn’t want my salvation to be screwed up. That led me to read some posts on tithing, some which were somewhat scathing of the church. Here are my thoughts, and I have read some of your posts but would be interested to know your take.
1. Gross tithing – What the high councilman talked about of course. Problems I see with this is of course the issue with taxes. Also it ignores home production. If I work an extra couple of days and make a 1000 dollars, I would pay 100 under gross tithing. But if I fix stuff at my house and save 1,000 dollars (which is actually more than 1,000 gross) I would pay know tithing?? Both are an increase to me. Similarly my wife trades off pre-school with other moms. This saves everyone thousands of dollars a year. If they paid each in cash, they would feel compelled to pay tithing. But because its a barter trade, not so much.
2. Net tithing – All of the same stuff of home production still applies. Also, how much you would pay would depend upon the governance of your state. If the raise money through a state income tax, you pay less tithing. If you have no income tax but a high sales tax, you pay more tithing. Same tax burden. Same public amenities, but one generates a differing obligation to God? Doesn’t sit right with me.
3. Increase – If I look at the change in my net worth (equity in house/cars/durable goods/savings) in a given year this would correspond with interest definition. This also is immune to the issue of sales vs. income tax and home production. Get a 1,000 surplus by working, titheable. Get a 1,000 dollar surplus by home production or barter, titheable. This would also require everyone to do an annual accounting of your finances and likely set goals to work towards setting up a surplus. This could encourage individuals to overconsume and hence have no surplus, but I think the parable of the talents might apply. Similarly if disaster hits and you lose your job or have high health costs, and lose all of your surplus, one would owe no tithing. This definition seems right in my heart, and immune to the other more common definitions I have heard amongst individuals in the church.
Thoughts??
Old-Timer wrote:One of our new participants asked about tithing – about how everyone here view it. Rather than open a new thread on the topic, I am bumping this one up for more comments – if anyone cares to do so…
My opinion on tithing is that I disagree with it and think it is mostly just a commandment of men based on an uninspired misinterpretation of the Bible. It’s not so much the idea of donating any money to the Church that bothers as much as the amount that they are asking for when they already have more money than they know what to do with. The idea of paying 10% of gross or even net income seems completely outrageous to me when I don’t feel like this accurately represents a reasonable amount of what God has given me if I can’t really spend this money any way I want. If I really wanted to get a temple recommend I would just pay 10% of any extra income left over after paying all my essential bills and maybe look into paying it directly to SLC so no one in the ward would know how much I paid just to be able to honestly answer yes to this question.
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