to tithe or not to tithe

[Anonymous]

Just wondering if anyone else has an issue with tithing?

I’ve been a full tithe payer my entire life, but my ‘crisis’ has led me to question everything, and as I’ve done that I’m finding less and less reasons to do it. My issues are:

– No transparency in church accounts. They are published for the UK (enforced by law on all charities), but that shows very little.

– Tithing being siphoned off to fund investments which turn into shopping malls, ranches, etc.

– Humanitarian Aid Fund/Fast Offering (which I happily donate to) being given in addition to tithing so that tithing funds don’t have to be used for ‘christlike’ causes.

– Corporate structure of the church (investments, property, wealth, bonds, etc.).

– Tiny percentage of church income going to assist the needy (Some estimates place this as low as 0.02%).

Mormons love to criticise the Catholic church for having so much wealth but not using it to feed the hungry and clothe the naked as Christ would require, but I think we are as bad (if not worse) now given the huge income the church receives.

I have no problem with the element of sacrifice, and I’m quite willing to maintain the 10% outgoings each month, but at the moment I feel that it would do much more good in the hands of Amnesty, Shelter, Doctors without Borders, Make a Wish foundation, etc.

Any thoughts?

[Anonymous]

I’ve recently developed issues with tithing, for many of the same reasons you point out in your post, kristmace. I’m at a point where I’d like to take all my tithing and put it into fast offerings… at least it would stay in the ward (if I understand it correctly) and could be used to bless the lives of those around me. This is how I thought tithing was being used until recently (silly me). There’s no way this is going to happen though… my wife would definitely not be on board with that… :shifty:

[Anonymous]

Kristmace,

I know what you mean. Why would we donate so many resources to an organization we have so many doubts about. Even if there were more transparency or even if we agreed with 100% of how donations were used, I’d probably still struggle donating to a church I didn’t feel was doctrinally true.

I used to pay 10% on my gross income but for the past several years I’ve paid on a “roadrunner defined” net – basically on money that I see minus several other things. I have several children in youth programs and I do use church facilities for sports and other activities so I feel it’s fair to donate a decent amount every year but nowhere near the TBM 10%. My stay at home TBM wife disagrees with how much I pay but I don’t think it bothers her too much because we have more money for other priorities. She doesn’t have an income but she would pay the full gross 10% if she did.

I don’t have problems with the new mall or with tithing being used to subsidize church schools but I understand why people struggle with them.

[Anonymous]

Tithing, however one calculates it, feels right to me. (It sure is nice to have some things stay the same in the midst of a lot of turmoil.) We pay and let it go. Not sure how I feel about tithing used as a worthiness barometer, though.

[Anonymous]

Roadrunner wrote:

I used to pay 10% on my gross income but for the past several years I’ve paid on a “roadrunner defined” net – basically on money that I see minus several other things. I have several children in youth programs and I do use church facilities for sports and other activities so I feel it’s fair to donate a decent amount every year but nowhere near the TBM 10%

^–This. Tithing is the calculation of your “interest annually” however you feel comfortable doing so and paying 10% of this. I definitely feel some should go to the church (I pay all) since as Roadrunner said, we get a benefit out from church. There’s lots of good threads on this on this forum if you want to see what else has been said on it.

[Anonymous]

Regarding humanitarian aid. I guess they give only as much as they receive as humanitarian aid contributions. It would be nice if they gave extra from the tithing contribution. I guess we don’t know that they don’t. But I presume they don’t

Apparently the church have categorically stated that no tithing funds were used for the mall. They have historical assets/lands/etc. When members die they often donate their estates to the church. Apparently all of that is what’s used to fund investments (plus the profit made off other investments). Apparently…

Also, Fast offering isn’t included in the 0.02% Humanitarian aid figure that’s often quoted. Fast offering is (I think) used for projects in like the Bishop’s store-house in USA and other welfare support for those in need. Which is pretty Christlike. But beyond that… I’ve no idea what else they need the money for. I think the pressure may build for them to be more open with finances.

To the question. Yes, I think some tithe is appropriate. I use the building, the carpark, the food at munch and mingle. I enjoy the temple and its grounds. I’m aware that on my mission my monthly contributions were no-where near enough to cover the total monthly cost of keeping me there. I have really enjoyed watching the recent New Testament videos (http://www.lds.org/bible-videos). The budget for creating these is in the 10s of millions. The set alone must have cost several million to build:

[img]http://www.ldschurchnews.com/media/photos/5686271.jpg[/img]

Also, the Joseph Smith Papers Project has a full-time team scanning and archiving papers (and have been for 10 years). But it’s creating a remarkable resource: http://josephsmithpapers.org/ (I love being able to look up the ‘most correct’ version of a D&C revelation in its original handwritten form). The family search resources are impressive and I have loved tracing my family tree back several generations. There’s a full-time team in most countries who develop relationships with councils, churches, governments to be able to gather and upload their genealogical data. I’ve also benefited from the church’s professional counselors and Addiction Recovery Program.

There are of course several things that I don’t agree with them using funds for. Prop 8 was a travesty. I don’t like the idea of any business ventures. But… I don’t hide my savings under a mattress, I put mine into investments in the hope of ensuring it generates a return. In Argentina it’s got 10% inflation, UK is nearly 3%. If they took tithing and didn’t reinvest it would quickly lose value relative its global responsibilities.

Am I doing mental gymnastics? Probably. It’s almost a reflex these days.

As for how much to pay? Well, there’s several blogs that look back on the historical way of doing it. Plus ‘income’ and ‘increase’ both seem intentionally ambiguous. Income after tax? Seems reasonable. After essential living expenses like a mortgage (or interest on a mortgage?). Maybe.

Also, are you doing gift aid yet in UK? Every £1 you give, the church can claim an extra 25p from the government if you register for gift aid. So if you work out that your monthly 10% is £100 (or whatever you decide your figure to be) and then you pay it direct to Solihull as gift aid and give them £80 and they will claim £20 from your tax bill (£80 x £0.25). Plus if you’re a young family on tax credits, if you declare your charitable donations on your end of year income report then they will usually give you a portion back (I think about 60%) in the next years tax credit allowance (or possibly as a lump sum).

So if you’re a British tax payer and you decide a ‘full-tithe’ is £1,000 for the full year:

Pay £800 as gift aid (church claims £200 from your tax bill, making it up to £1k)

When you complete your tax credit end of year report, deduct £800 from your gross income (fill in the form). Depending on your current tax credit rate you may get as much as £480 back in tax credits. If you’re not on tax credits I think you can deduct the charitable payments from your tax return.

Your total outlay (for a £1000 full tithe, keeping your TBM DW happy) is £320. If you were offered a Tithe rate of 3.2% would you take it?

You can pay Gift Aid by direct debit to Solihull.

Check the HMRC rules on gift aid, tax credits and a form to deduct payments from income:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/gift_aid/basics.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/start/claiming/income-hours/employment-income.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/tc825.pdf

[Anonymous]

My main gripe isn’t with HOW the money is spent.

If you think of tithing as primarily to help the poor, then, yeah, the church gets low marks. But if you think of tithing as primarily for the building up of the church and taking it to people throughout the world, then I think you’d have to say the church has done phenomenally well.

Overall, including tithing, fast offerings, gains from investments and donated time, I think the church does an admirable job helping its own in need, and a good job helping non-members in need. For example, after the earthquake a few years ago, the LDS church provided more in disaster relief to Haiti than the countries of Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland, combined (see http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jan/14/haiti-quake-aid-pledges-country-donations#data and http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700009189/Mormon-church-provided-425M-in-Haiti-relief.html).

As for investments… I don’t get too wound-up about that, because just like everyone else in the world, those that invest their money wisely, find themselves in a situation where they have more money to do the things they want to do (in the case of the church, “build up the kingdom”).

My biggest complaint has to do with the perceived mandate to pay 10% of gross and to do it without regard to responsible management of one’s own finances.

Here’s a thread directed at that concern:

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3058

[Anonymous]

This post won a Wheaties award for best historical and doctrinal post this year. It details the history of tithing: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html

[Anonymous]

There are some good, long threads in our archives on this exact topic. I highly recommend (and I mean HIGHLY recommend) finding them and reading them.

I love the concept and principle of tithing. The practice gets wonky in various situations, and I really dislike any stance that dictates how it should be calculated and paid (especially the idea that paying on gross salary is the one and only true way, since I see that as . . . just a bit . . . nonsensical) – but I love the concept and principle of it.

[Admin note: Let’s not turn this into a discussion of humanitarian aid and the mall. Been there in other threads; done that in other threads. Again, if you want to go there, find the other threads, read all of the comments and bump them up for discussion again by commenting on them. It’s fine to mention those things, if they are important to answering the title question, but let’s not let this derail into one of those topics.]

[Author]

Posts