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https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865688689/Gay-brother-of-Mormon-apostle-shares-his-spiritual-journey.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865688689/Gay-brother-of-Mormon-apostle-shares-his-spiritual-journey.html It’s long – I don’t want to parse it into quotes just yet. It needs to be read in full for proper discussion.
After you’ve read it – please discuss.
Initial reaction: Overall great hopeful article. I like the emphasis on following your own path by trusting what you feel is right and that there is happiness to be found outside the church. Some favorite quotes:
Quote:I was a very happy non-Mormon and now I’m a very happy Mormon again,” Christofferson said. “I think we oversimplify if we simply imagine there is no happiness outside the structure that we understand. There are friendships and the enjoyments of life and everything else, and still a desire to be a good, moral person, to make the world a better place. Happiness comes from all those things.
Quote:One of the things I was looking for as I came back to church was again that feeling of a higher purpose, or a greater meaning of my life beyond enjoyment,” he said. “This is where I find it. There are also people that find higher purpose or greater meaning in other places.
Quote:His instantaneous comment was we’d love to have you come and hope you’ll bring your partner. We’d like to get to know both of you. The mission that we’re on in the ward is to become more effective disciples of Christ. You can help us. We all bring something and work on that effort together
Quote:What I admire about Tom’s journey and certainly what I relate to is the sense of trust that Tom has gone through life with, that he didn’t necessarily have all of the answers and he was willing to just kind of take whatever step seemed most appropriate and just trust that doing what felt right would be right
What I am still saddened by is the church’s insistence on maintaining their anti-gay policy. I fear they will parade examples like Tom and Courtney & Rachelle (the lesbian couple who divorced for the church) as the “success” stories of people coming back to the church. No one should feel they have to give up a loving and committed relationship in order to be a meaningful member of this church. What is Christian about that? I have several gay mormon friends who are married and cannot participate in the church with its current policies, despite them having much stronger testimonies and belief than I do. If the brethren can accept polygamy, polyandry, teenage brides, and all the messiness that plural marriage entailed, then surely they can find a place for gay marriage and those in gay relationships to participate meaningfully in the church.
This quote in the article was one of the ones that broke my heart:
Quote:Eventually Christofferson’s desire to return to the LDS Church resulted in him ending his relationship with his partner, a separation which was grieved not only by Tom but also his family who had come to love the man.
One of the best missionaries in my mission was gay. He really had a love for the people and a humble attitude, unlike a lot of the Elders. He of course ultimately left the church, and his mother did too because there was no place for her son. It’s brutal. I liked what Tom also quoted: Quote:I think we oversimplify if we simply imagine there is no happiness outside the structure that we understand. There are friendships and the enjoyments of life and everything else, and still a desire to be a good, moral person, to make the world a better place. Happiness comes from all those things.
I think it is a shift for people to think outside some things they just assumed were necessary to happiness because of what we reiterate to children and on sundays to each other…but…I truly believe this sentiment will become more and more the norm of accepted thought. You CAN be happy in or out of the church…so many do. It’s a pretty simple concept, actually.
I think it will change the narrative of what leads to happiness and what doesn’t, and what role the church plays and what it doesn’t.
I also liked how the bishop in the story was welcoming. All you need to enter the chapel is being willing…no other requirements in belief or practice.
It does get more complicated because once you are in the chapel…you’re gonna hear stuff that may be uncomfortable….but…that is what is said in the chapel. All are welcome to come listen.
There is bound to be conflict in personal situations, but that is part of the faith and working out our gospel lives. It never will be a chapel of no conflict. Just people gathering to try to love through differences. When this topic goes away in decades…there will be another.
I can’t help but feel sorrow for a broken loving relationship. This world needs more love, not less. Not all people choosing this path will have the same level of support as the brother of an apostle. Also, I wonder when we will see a story about a Gay or Lesbian couple with adopted kids and they divorce to join the church trusting that the Lord will take care of the children.
DoubtingTom wrote:If the brethren can accept polygamy, polyandry, teenage brides, and all the messiness that plural marriage entailed, then surely they can find a place for gay marriage and those in gay relationships to participate meaningfully in the church.
this is an interesting point, Tom.I totally think they COULD take whatever stance they feel right about. And it can change. One day…polygamy is a restored way of heaven we must embrace…the next day it is not allowed and you get ex’d for it.
We are in the day right now that you get ex’d for SSM. There will be another day. They can change. I totally believe they will.
But…kinda ironic, isn’t it…that we fight our past of weird marriage practice, only to step into conservative fight against other ideas. You would think we should be on the forefront of toleration and acceptance.
I suppose I am still reeling somewhat from the Courtney & Rachelle story. I worry that we are promoting success stories of people that have left the fold, lived a life of sin, found it wanting, and then dumped their sinful partnership in order to come back.
The silver lining for me is how loving, welcoming, and accepting that the wards in these two stories have been portrayed to be.
Quote:Christofferson’s story will also be shared in a KSL TV special between sessions of this October’s LDS General Conference. The program will feature an interview with Christofferson and his brothers, along with ward and stake leaders who helped fellowship him back into the LDS faith after nearly two decades.
Wow, that seems like some pretty high level promotion. Certainly seems like that kind of access would need to come from HQ. I wonder what the moral of the story is. I fear that it is designed as a counter to the narrative that LDS gays are miserable. That they in too many instances are desperate for a way out … either by leaving the church or suicide. “See, Tom Christofferson is a happy and celibate gay Mormon. Now what is this nonsense about our being intolerant to gays or gays not having a place within the church?”
I suppose what I would really hope for at this point is a success story with a different conclusion. Gay couple goes to church, gay couple is welcome, gay couple serves in capacities where membership is not required (Scout committee?), Gay couple is integrated into the social fabric of the ward family/community as much as possible, Gay couple and ward are content.
:thumbup: Put that story in a KSL TV special between sessions of LDS general conference!:thumbup: Roy wrote:
I suppose what I would really hope for at this point is a success story with a different conclusion. Gay couple goes to church, gay couple is welcome, gay couple serves in capacities where membership is not required (Scout committee?), Gay couple is integrated into the social fabric of the ward family/community as much as possible, Gay couple and ward are content.
Do we have any examples of these stories? I’ve only heard of it going in one direction or the other.
dande48 wrote:
Roy wrote:
I suppose what I would really hope for at this point is a success story with a different conclusion. Gay couple goes to church, gay couple is welcome, gay couple serves in capacities where membership is not required (Scout committee?), Gay couple is integrated into the social fabric of the ward family/community as much as possible, Gay couple and ward are content.
Do we have any examples of these stories? I’ve only heard of it going in one direction or the other.
A friend of mine in the ward I grew up in is gay and married and still attending. He and his husband are wonderful people and would be an assett to any ward.
Here’s a couple articles about their story:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/08/a-wards-embrace-to-a-gay-lds-couple.html http://religionnews.com/2017/06/13/married-gay-mormons-try-to-stay-lds-part-1/ I challenge you to read these with dry eyes.
Can we please Please PLEASE make space in this church for couples like this?
ETA: Part 2 of the story:
http://religionnews.com/2017/06/14/married-gay-and-mormon-part-2/ Roadrunner wrote:
I can’t help but feel sorrow for a broken loving relationship. This world needs more love, not less. Not all people choosing this path will have the same level of support as the brother of an apostle.Also, I wonder when we will see a story about a Gay or Lesbian couple with adopted kids and they divorce to join the church trusting that the Lord will take care of the children.
There is much that is positive as it will make some homophobic members have to think a bit, but it does give me the feeling that the vibe given off will be, “Gays should have no issues coming back to church and if they don’t then the gay people have the problem and the church is perfect.” I think there was some of this with Josh Weed (married man that came out gay, but stayed married). It was held up as, “everyone should be able to do this!” without taking into account that a bisexual individual might be able to do this, but a person that is a 6 (the maximum) on the Kinsey Scale is going to have a different experience (as is their spouse). I did feel there was a bit of, “Josh can do it, so anybody can and if anybody gives up, they are just weak and a failure in God’s eyes”.Meanwhile the Utah LGBT youth keep killing themselves
http://www.sltrib.com/news/health/2017/09/13/seeking-to-counter-trend-utah-confirmed-suicides-for-2017-utah-on-pace-to-beat-last-years-record/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.sltrib.com/news/health/2017/09/13/seeking-to-counter-trend-utah-confirmed-suicides-for-2017-utah-on-pace-to-beat-last-years-record/ 👿 👿 👿 👿 👿 LookingHard wrote:
Meanwhile the Utah LGBT youth keep killing themselveshttp://www.sltrib.com/news/health/2017/09/13/seeking-to-counter-trend-utah-confirmed-suicides-for-2017-utah-on-pace-to-beat-last-years-record/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.sltrib.com/news/health/2017/09/13/seeking-to-counter-trend-utah-confirmed-suicides-for-2017-utah-on-pace-to-beat-last-years-record/ 👿 👿 👿 👿 👿
I thought those suicides mostly had to do with living in Utah too long…
I tried looking it up, but for the life of me, I can’t find any concrete statistics on actual suicide rates for the LGBT (just attempted, which is all over the place). Being a man increases your risk of suicide by 4x. Being White/Native American increases it by 3x. There are 25 reported attempted suicides for every 1 successful. But no LGBT statistics.
I guess why I’m asking, is I’ve got a buddy who recently moved from Missouri to Utah, because he felt he had a better support system out there (he’s gay). It seems like conditions for LGBT have much improved (though has a long ways to go). Suicide rates are really up there, especially in Utah. But I think the problem goes much deeper than that.
Wow those shoes on the steps is impact-ful. Many of you have parsed my own concerns. Yet none of us has Crystal Balls to know the future. I can’t guess how this will affect us going forward – However, though I too struggle with the idea that loving relationships had to be given up to fully be a member, what if those who did and are being public about it help turn the stone face of LGBTQ to a softer, more accepting place. It’s heart breaking to think it might. But Tom couldn’t tell his story as broadly had he remained. Was it/is it an Eve type choice for him and Courtney and Rochelle? – I don’t know.
The only other gripe I carry is why didn’t Elder Christofferson ever take the lead and talk about his families acceptance and love of his brother. I have yearned for him to lead out like that for years. Why put the onus on the brother? It’s not bragging to teach. It’s not bragging to share a Mother’s inspiration and example.
I hope it does begin to crack some of the stereotypes about “less faithful members” We need that across the board. Our ego is killing us – One true church or not.
I find it personally difficult to find my stance on gays in the church. On the one hand, I believe there is doctrine behind it and I don’t think that’s going to change. On the other hand, the broad culture of the church is not supportive of LGBT individuals and this is highly distressing to them. Policy walks a fine line between being firm on doctrine and being supportive. I can’t exactly justify for myself the idea that you can be gay married and in full fellowship with the church… But I also don’t want that pressure to be the reason they’re depressed, anxious, or suicidal. I still have a lot to sort out, but my current stance is this:
– The (current) ideal for gays/lesbians in the church is to remain celibate. This works great for some, but isn’t possible for everyone.
– You can still be happy and fulfilled without being in full fellowship with the church.
– You need to be honest with yourself and others about your sexual orientation and gender identity/discomfort
– Come as close as you can to the ideal without feeling like you are living a lie or sacrificing personal happiness. If this means you hit the ideal, great. If it means leaving the church, that’s okay too. Jesus knows you’re trying and he has you covered. Everything will work out.
– For the rest of you straight cis-gendered members, be supportive of LGBT members just as you should to members dealing with chronic depression or severe anxiety. Granted, not many people really know how to support those, but let’s start with something simple: listen and give hugs (if wanted).
Last GC (I think), I was on temple square for one session, and there was a guy holding a sign that said “Hug a gay Mormon.” I hugged him. The lady with him asked me why I hugged him. I simply said something like, “they need all the love and support they can get.”
As with Courtney and Rachelle, I respect Tom’s responsibility to choose and the choices he has made for himself. He said explicitly that at each juncture of his life, including leaving the church, he has felt it was the next right thing to do. For him. I think it’s wonderful that he’s felt that throughout his life and continues to feel it. However, as like before, I am anxious that this will be used to bolster up the measuring rod used against gay people. In the comments section on Deseret News, I see plenty of the comments having a sense of righteousness, meaning that they’re so happy he found his way
backto the light (when they actually mean the church), when it sounds like the light never left him. He’s just a member again. His own reasons for coming back cited the lack of deeper meaning and fulfillment while not a member. I can speak to that as well. It’s hard to create a framework large and sturdy enough for yourself, let alone one to share in with other people. It’s not that the LDS church has all the correct doctrine, it’s sometimes easier to return to a structure you’re familiar with to continue to develop in. I think straight people really do brush past the difficulties of LGBT members. We always are operating on a knowledge that we will have support and encouragement for any romantic relationship we want to enter into (barring abuse), regardless of that person’s membership status. Yes, it is deemed better and more appropriate to marry a member, but straight people aren’t shunned or excommunicated for marrying a non-member. LGBT do not have the privilege of expecting support for the romantic relationships they biologically find meaning in. Ever. If they date someone of the same gender, they run the risk of being found out and facing whatever discipline their leadership decides. Worse, if they marry they are automatically excommunicated and any children cannot become members until they’re 18 years old and renounce their parents’ marriage. Again, that’s not even close to anything straight members have to deal with.
Lastly, the reasons I think members have such a hard time accepting LGBT relationships as legitimate is because of the eternal perspective of marriage and family relationships. Infertile couples will theoretically be able to have children in the hereafter, but same-gender couples still don’t have the requisite anatomy to produce children. Despite having no clue how spirits are even created, this is somewhat foiled by our belief in “perfected, resurrected bodies.” People have varying degrees of belief regarding what those bodies are like, namely that they won’t require oxygen or food like we do now. That we can eat if we want to, but that our bodies won’t actually need it. The inconsistency lies in the fact that both men and women require a whole and functioning human system, complete with a circulatory system, reproductive cycles, and hormones, therefore the idea that only some parts of our bodies will be functioning while the rest of it operates only when and how we want it to is inaccurate. Usually, the claim that “Well, there are some things we just don’t know and have to have faith in because it’ll all get worked out in the end” enters the stage, which is usually code for “You just introduced cognitive dissonance into my worldview, I don’t like it, and instead of attempting to reconcile opposing viewpoints and potentially widening the scope of our doctrine I’m going to pass on the responsibility and accountability to someone else.” *cough Satan’s Plan cough*
We may say we don’t have all the answers, but with the excommunications and all it sure seems like we act like it.
mom3 wrote:
The only other gripe I carry is why didn’t Elder Christofferson ever take the lead and talk about his families acceptance and love of his brother. I have yearned for him to lead out like that for years. Why put the onus on the brother? It’s not bragging to teach. It’s not bragging to share a Mother’s inspiration and example.
I’ve wondered about this too. It certainly seems like he could without repercussion. I have actually wondered if he’s not the “outsider” in his family. It was interesting to note in the article that he told Tom it was OK to distance himself if he wanted. Was that his way of saying “Let’s distance ourselves?” (despite Tom’s assertion that such distancing has not happened).
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