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Another factor, speaking from personal experience, is some men welcome the isolation. After a tough divorce or relationship, why go out and try to sign up for more relationship connections that brought so much exhaustion in the past??
I once sat next to a divorced women at a concert. We started talking and for some reason, she started telling me how in her age group, many of the men don’t want a romantic relationship because “their wives have destroyed them”. The quote above has that kind of ring to it, minus the “destroyed” part — I think she meant they men had grown disillusioned with romantic relationships due to the marriage.
In terms of having support, or not — I would rather have the support. I have wondered what would happen if I was ever divorced. I would probably be one of those people who want the friendship of a woman, but not a full romantic relationship. I have those kinds of relationships now with certain people I work alongside in volunteer work. And even after I leave the organization, we stay in touch, help each other with referrals to people who can provide us business services, call each other for advice. It goes both ways. We talk on the phone once a month. It’s all about business, accomplishing things, how to handle certain problems when I have a strength she doesn’t, or she has a strength I don’t. And occasionally it goes into personal arenas, but not very far. I think that is the kind of relationship I would want.
Bottom line, SD…if a relationships enriches your life, it is worth the investment. If it is an obligation to take care of someone else or sacrifice too much without reward, it is not better than isolation. Others will likely make up stories to try to explain your behavior, but that is their opinion and judgment what makes sense to them (he is broken, he lost his testimony, he had a midlife crisis).
SilentDawning wrote:I once sat next to a divorced women at a concert. We started talking and for some reason, she started telling me how in her age group, many of the men don’t want a romantic relationship because “their wives have destroyed them”. The quote above has that kind of ring to it, minus the “destroyed” part — I think she meant they men had grown disillusioned with romantic relationships due to the marriage.
After reading this I think I would have to say that I probably am of that mindset now. If I found myself suddenly single or became a widower, I actually don’t know that I would go looking for a relationship. Part of me looks and says, “Daaaang that is pathetic and sad.”SilentDawning wrote:I once sat next to a divorced women at a concert. We started talking and for some reason, she started telling me how in her age group, many of the men don’t want a romantic relationship because “their wives have destroyed them”. The quote above has that kind of ring to it, minus the “destroyed” part — I think she meant they men had grown disillusioned with romantic relationships due to the marriage.
I don’t know whether it’s different between the sexes but when she says destroyed I take her at her word. Sometimes people get hurt so badly that they become afraid to open themselves up to others. Isolation is the preferred path because creating new relationships is perceived as an open invitation to more pain.
I don’t think you have to be on the receiving end of being hurt deeply to gravitate towards isolation. Sometimes hurting someone else deeply can drive us toward isolation. In those cases we don’t want new relationships because we don’t want to hurt others.
I know the men struggle with the financial burden. Alimony, for one. With much of what they earn going back into the old relationship after they leave the relationship. I knew one gentleman who was well-incomed, and had a live-in girlfriend. She left him, but he made the comment that living together made the whole separation “much easier” compared to his divorce. It’s nice to see people discussing the challenges men face, but the women have them too. It would not suprise me if Hawgrrl has received a certain amount of non-acceptance because apparently she had a career. When my wife wasn’t able to have children, she would come home from most Sunday meetings in tears because of childlessness, and the stigma of working and comments from members such as our Bishops’ wife at the time. Much easier when we don’t expect men and women to adopt stereotypical roles.
Also, some people are just plain better at certain things than others. there are families where it may be better for the woman to be the primary breadwinner, and the man stays at home, or works part-time. Some women, contrary to popular stereotypes, are not great with responsibilities traditionally assigned to women and may find them dull, burdensome. I think it’s much better for “the object and design of our existence” (happiness) for people to invest their life in those areas where they have passion and strength. And the results are often better for their children.
For some, it is better to be out working and have their children trained by skilled early childhood education professionals. Although my wife has talent in that way, my daughter gained much of hear early age brain activation at the feet of trained Montessori teachers, and we don’t regret a penny — neither of us. They did a much better job than either of us could do. My wife worked and paid for the early childhood training, my daughter benefited, and we are both happy with the results. She developed skills that she has sustained and reactivated and our family financial situation is so much better as a result.
SilentDawning wrote:Lessons as coma-inducing in EQ!
Bread, water, and some guy who makes Ben Stein sound like a tweaker reading a magazine article to me verbatim. Do I go to church on Sundays or a third world prison?
Quote:I would add the chair-setting up and moving requirements that men buy into when they join the church. It should be part of the baptismal interview as it’s lifelong commitment!!
That, and the punishment for being five minutes early is getting roped into setting up everything, while the guys that get there late eat all the food, even though there’s still setup to be done. Twice now, I’ve gone to activities where I ended up helping set up only to find that by the time they were finally done with me, the only thing left was wilted salad and tap-tepid water. That, after a two hour drive in traffic to get there, and the activity ending after all the decent restaurants closed.
I once toyed with doing something I enjoy, which generates income. I then use that to pay people to set up chairs, move, and do the drudgery of our religion for me. One of our SP’s paid someone to do his geneology for him!!! Word got around and he addressed it in a conference. Hee mentioned the name of who he paid to do the geneology, and then said “the commandment is to get it done — no one said you have to do it yourself!!”. This SP was the one who I worked with on getting on a mission, and later interviewed as part of an MBA program course I was taking on creative business leadership…can we pay people to do our service for us in many cases, and not be under censure?
SilentDawning wrote:I once toyed with doing something I enjoy, which generates income. I then use that to pay people to set up chairs, move, and do the drudgery of our religion for me.
It is a tradition in my TBM family to have each “family” take a holiday and make all the plans. I HATE this tradition,…so I paid my sister $100 to do it for me. My only requirement was I didn’t want to hear a damn thing about anything–I wanted her to do it all and I didn’t want to hear a word.
When found out, I was later shunned for most of the year, and my then wife was also angry at me.
I didn’t care. It was the best money I ever spent.
SilentDawning wrote:One of our SP’s paid someone to do his geneology for him!!! Word got around and he addressed it in a conference. Hee mentioned the name of who he paid to do the geneology, and then said “the commandment is to get it done — no one said you have to do it yourself!!”.
I guess that depends on if you are interested in results or interested in growth and progression.If the religious ordinances are taken literally…then it is only important it gets done, no matter how that happens…baseball baptisms then become enticing options…because all that matters is the result.
In principle, I bet the SP knows better. In practice, we all rationalize our buffet choices.
Heber13 wrote:SilentDawning wrote:If the religious ordinances are taken literally…then it is only important it gets done, no matter how that happens…baseball baptisms then become enticing options…because all that matters is the result.
In principle, I bet the SP knows better. In practice, we all rationalize our buffet choices.
I don’t know — I don’t see a lot of value in the research process if the living member finds it tedious, and outside his strengths and passions. His passion may be for taking the research and passing it on to others in the form of stories, albums, etcetera. I don’t feel the process is particularly enobling either — at least not for me. Now, reading the outcome of it, and reflecting on how the knowledge of our ancestors character, situations influences us now — that is important. But the research process? I don’t see it as a one-size fits all path to progression.
In the case of this hard-nosed SP, he could probably do more good by dedicating his time to activities other than researching his geneology. Like taking a course in how to lead his stake and inspire the young adults (just kidding).
Quote:“the Bishop’s kid”
As if every Bishop’s wife is a saint and every troubled Bishop’s kid would not have had any problems without that calling – and all the Bishops’ kids who are wonderful and productive get overlooked.
Seriously, that bugs me. I know a lot of Bishops and a lot of Bishop’s wives – and it lots of cases the right phrase would be “the Bishop’s wife’s kid”.
Heber13 wrote:SilentDawning wrote:One of our SP’s paid someone to do his geneology for him!!! Word got around and he addressed it in a conference. Hee mentioned the name of who he paid to do the geneology, and then said “the commandment is to get it done — no one said you have to do it yourself!!”.
I guess that depends on if you are interested in results or interested in growth and progression.If the religious ordinances are taken literally…then it is only important it gets done, no matter how that happens…baseball baptisms then become enticing options…because all that matters is the result.
In principle, I bet the SP knows better. In practice, we all rationalize our buffet choices.
I’m not sure if you are serious Heber. If you are, I see this 100% differently. I believe the ordinances are what is important, not the tedious work. Tedious work is tedious work with perhaps satisfaction when you finally make progress,…but it is still tedious work.
You can gain a lot of growth, perhaps, from doing research. But if the goal is gaining the growth from research, why not pay someone who knows what they are doing, and research something else like physics? You would learn to study, how to weigh and discern importance, how to process, etc. Both accomplish the same thing, do they not? I remember hearing Elder Eyring speak of how God helped him in his chemistry study, just like God helped him in his scripture study…so surely you can gain from either one?
In the case of geneology, why would paying a professional to do the research be in any way inferior to doing your own? I happen to think that if you have the money to pay such a person, it is actually superior than doing your own: you will probably get faster results, probably more accurate results, and you can get their work done–which they are waiting anxiously to have completed, so we have been told.
Stereo-types play in so many ways, and not gaining benefit unless you do the work yourself is one of those, IMHO.
Rob4Hope wrote:You can gain a lot of growth, perhaps, from doing research. But if the goal is gaining the growth from research, why not pay someone who knows what they are doing, and research something else like physics?
Why not pay for the physics research as well and do nothing!
Both physics and my ancestors played a part in getting me here. While both are interesting subjects in their own right the role physics played was a heartless one. Physics didn’t make personal sacrifices for me, my parents did, so I’d say there’s more of a personal connection with genealogy.
There’s some value in learning to do research, there’s also some value in feeling satisfaction from successfully doing a job. With genealogy there’s probably also some value that comes from making a connection with other people, live or dead. You’re correct, you could pay someone else, read their report, and get on with more pressing things but often the value we get out of something is proportional to the amount of effort that we put in. The SP may not feel as deep a connection to his ancestors from reading a report than he would had he done the research himself. Of course that’s speculative.
You ever see that Simpson’s episode where Homer pays someone to write up a report on Lisa so Homer can use the report to show he knows things about Lisa? I’m probably the only one that has the first 10 seasons or so practically memorized, so here’s a link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dad_Who_Knew_Too_Little ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dad_Who_Knew_Too_Little Rob4Hope wrote:In the case of geneology, why would paying a professional to do the research be in any way inferior to doing your own? I happen to think that if you have the money to pay such a person, it is actually superior than doing your own: you will probably get faster results, probably more accurate results, and you can get their work done–which they are waiting anxiously to have completed, so we have been told.
I’m not defending Heber13’s position, sorry Heber13, but I also have a warped way of looking at things, I often see economic divides. Consider this. The SP is in a leadership position so he’s probably constantly reminding people to get their genealogy work done. He may be well enough off financially to pay someone to do the work for him but as a leader isn’t he supposed to be leading by example? Not everyone can afford a PI to do the work for them. Here’s a leader bothering people to fit one more activity into their already busy lives… but he was able to get around the work.
Can I pay someone to do my HTing?
😈 It still gets done, right?Personally I don’t have a problem with the SP hiring someone to do the work, you get out what you put in. If you pay someone for a report hopefully you’ll get that report.
Rob4Hope wrote:I’m not sure if you are serious Heber.
I was trying to make a piont, but serious in some ways.
Quote:I believe the ordinances are what is important, not the tedious work. Tedious work is tedious work with perhaps satisfaction when you finally make progress,…but it is still tedious work.
I can understand it may be tedious to some people. My grandmother never viewed it as tedious.
Quote:You can gain a lot of growth, perhaps, from doing research. But if the goal is gaining the growth from research, why not pay someone who knows what they are doing, and research something else like physics?
I wish I could have paid my brother to do my statistics in college, he was much better at it. If I told all my professors that I was going to focus on studying the scriptures only, would I be able to get a degree? Nope. Not all study is the same. That’s why there are different subjects and majors to specialize in, but they require general education to give broader experience.
Studying physics will not help us get the experience of geneology work and the appreciation of our family legacy. But…I think my point was that if one is approaching a commandment by just results, it just needs to be done and doesn’t matter how it gets done, I think they miss the point of any commandment or ordinance. Baseball baptisms got eternal ordinance work done. So…are those valid? Do the ends justify the means? i don’t think so. And the church stopped doing them because it isn’t right. The baptisms and ordinances of the gospel are only helpful when a person first has faith and the spirit of the sacred work. That is what gives the ordinances any power, faith unto repentance.
Quote:In the case of geneology, why would paying a professional to do the research be in any way inferior to doing your own?
The answer is the same as why the church has it as a commandment for all members to do. Because certainly the church with its vast resources and experts could do all our geneology faster and better than expecting us all to do it, where we leave gaps, make mistakes, and probably waste a lot of time duplicating each others’ works. It is inferior in getting the information. But it is superior in providing lessons for us all to learn, which is the purpose of it.
If that SP started teaching EVERYONE to start paying consultants and outsource anything that seems tedious…I am positive a GA would come through there and shut that down and tell people that is not the proper way to fulfill that commandment, or any commandment.
nibbler wrote:He may be well enough off financially to pay someone to do the work for him but as a leader isn’t he supposed to be leading by example? Not everyone can afford a PI to do the work for them. Here’s a leader bothering people to fit one more activity into their already busy lives… but he was able to get around the work.
I’m not defending nibbler’s position ….
😆 …but really nibbler’s point is a good one. Something for us to remember about leaders…they pick and choose from the buffet too on how to prioritize time and what they believe is important.
Perhaps this leader is exemplifying how dedicated he is to do all commandments, even by getting creative. It is not an example of how to do geneology, but an example of how to strive to fulfill all things we are asked to do, and so this was his way of being like the Brother of Jared…there was a problem…it needed a way around the problem…and we take the solution to the Lord who is proud of us for trying to come up with solutions like lighting a boat by having crystal rocks touched by the finger of the Lord.
That solution to get the light in the boats doesn’t become “the right way” for all boats. It is just one way…and it is approved by the Lord.
Not everything done by our leaders is “the right way”. It is just a way.
I have to figure out the way I choose to get my geneology done. Which, for me is that I don’t work on it right now. I have more important things to be spending time with my living children and relatives. I will keep looking for the right time in my life to engage in it when I can benefit from doing it. Otherwise…just like everything else in the temple that needs to be done properly for the eternities…”God will make it all work out”.
I don’t believe I have ancestors in the spirit world just waiting and waiting and waiting for me to take their name to the temple.
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