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MercynGrace & RagDollSally, It’s interesting that you brought up BPD… yesterday, I was studying it extensively since some people in my life who have been diagnosed with it.
I’m hesitant to believe labels & diagnosis & believe that we all have times when we can be a little this or that, but sometimes it’s helpful to understand upsetting behavior & to see patterns.
MercynGrace,
About getting sick when your MIL came last… I believe that we are somehow affected by the energy of each other… ie: women who hang out together a lot (ie family & rommates) tend to have their cycles come together.
I wonder if there’s such a thing as social immunity… developing immunity to people who rub us the wrong way.
Some are very toxic to most people… but maybe there’s a way (besides physical boundaries) – to insulate ourselves so they don’t bug us so much.
Your situation with your MIL is probably unique – because she’s in your haven – your temple – your home – more invading than if it were elsewhere.
I also believe that our mind/emotions are inseparably connected with our physiology.
Check this searchable link out… but keep in mind that metaphysical explanations are just one possible part of the puzzle…
http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health/healingaffirmations.htm Oh featherina, believe me… if you ever lived with a true borderline you would see they are never just a little of this or a little of that. Normally I would be on the same page as you with labels but while some people may just have borderline tendencies, borderlines are quite extreme. They are not a little bit or even a fair share of anything. If you really want to see black and white thinking and behavior- its all extreme. The first counselor we saw together was of the same line of thinking. He didn’t like labels either. But that is because he did not understand borderlines at all. He in fact made things dangerously worse because he kept trying to treat my husband as a regular man. It was very bad and scary times. The only way we made some progress at all was for my husband to own the label. As far as therapy goes, counselors who understand it (and most don’t) say it is the worst of the mental illnesses to treat, even worse than schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. And many will refuse to treat borderlines at all. Believe me, there are reasons why! I am very sorry that you have to interact with your mother-n-law Mercygrace. Based on your description I would tend to agree with Ragdollsaly. My sister is a diagnosed borderline and it is truly a horrific experience for herself and all involved with her. As Ragdollsaly stated it can be difficult to even find proper treatment or practitioners that will even manage or attempt to treat borderlines. Take your mil in small doses and remember that you can NOT reason with her! She will not perceive reality correctly even if you have it on video. That is why you start to feel crazy or question yourself. There is a fantastic book that may help you and your husband understand the influence his mother has had on him and by default you called “the borderline mother.” It was the first book I read that helped me to understand why everything falls apart when interacting with my sister for longer than 20 minutes and that is not an exaggeration! It also allowed me to understand why she would rage or manipulate and how to not engage her or let the chaos take over my life.
It truly is heart wrenching for both the borderline and the people that love them. Goodluck and prayers for you and your husband regardless if she is a borderline or not! ( also for you Ragdollsaly)
Thanks Dax. You are absolutely right about trying to reason with my MIL. She cannot understand reason or logic at all. She asks a questions and the minute you open your mouth to attempt an answer, you’re sunk, because she will twist and turn everything around until you are questioning the most basic things.
I appreciate all of you chiming in with your own experiences. I have felt very alone dealing with this for years because I hold back when talking to my husband. I’m going to look for that book right away. I think it would bring my husband a lot of comfort to know he’s not alone in much of what he’s endured.
That is a great book! Utilized it years ago. I have to wonder if there is something genetic with the BPD…we have,believe it or not, 3 people in our extended family who demonstrate these traits. They seem to have no ability to do any introspection at all. And I second, that even with a video showing them their behavior, they seem to be unable to see it. Featherina, in answer to your insulating question, the answer is yes. But to get to that point, you have to set a lot of boundaries and allow yourself to grow spiritually. It takes great spirituality to have built up enough callouses to be able to interact closely with a BPD and even more if there is some histronic personality there too. And even then, you will have occasions when they will still get the best of you. We are only human and as much as we can try so hard, our natural selves can still feel the hurt in the situations they can create.
I have had a couple of therapists tell me they don’t like to treat BPD because most BPD’s won’t introspect and let the therapist really help them. And most BPD’s quit therapy by the third session. Maybe it’s something genetic (anxiety or something) that keeps them from allowing themselves to feel discomfort in order to progress. Like their own self protective shield.
When your BPD is a member of our faith, it can make it much worse, especially if you all live in the same town! When someone likes to play the victim, believe me, there are plenty of good church members who can get sucked into their stories about the awful person who is causing problems in their family.
Ultimately, I just feel sorry now for anyone with this disorder. It has to be such an unhappy way to live and be. Their lives end up with people distancing from them all over the place and many with conflict, while they sit there not understanding why any of it is happening. They just can’t bring themselves to believe they could be causing some of the conflict or doing anything not right. The control issues are over the top too.
The RX for me has been distance until callouses build up, boundaries, lots of prayer, forgiveness, repentance for my terrible thoughts at times about them and just trying to love them, even if it is from a distance. But also standing my ground and not enabling them to emotionally abuse. I think not enabling them helps them to be better people.
I am learning so much from everyone. I can’t even begin to describe how healing your comments have been. So often, I know something is “off” but I can’t quite put my finger on it but you all are giving me the language to deal with what I have experienced. Afterall,
On the point of introspection. Oh. My. Gosh. My MIL does not ever own her actions or words. She cannot accept any responsibility for her life. She is the consummate victim/martyr and lays responsibility for everything on the nearest external source – whoever or whatever that may be. She has been in therapy for years and years but that’s because even in therapy, she blames her husband’s addictions for everything. Her kids have been “played” so many times over the years as she’s threatened to leave her husband. They’ve encouraged her to leave. They’ve made sacrifices to help her leave. They’ve found her apartments. They’ve offered to help her move. They’ve come over and confronted her husband about his addiction. They’ve done everything to support her but she never leaves. Ultimately, she can’t. That would take away her excuses and make her accountable for the bad relationships in her life. They are classic co-dependents. This complicates things so much for her children and grandchildren who have tried to love her and have only learned through painful experience that she really doesn’t want (or know how to have) a happy, normal life.
I keep saying this but I do want to thank everyone who has spoken up. Just knowing we aren’t walking this alone has lightened my burden.
afterall wrote:I have had a couple of therapists tell me they don’t like to treat BPD because most BPD’s won’t introspect and let the therapist really help them. And most BPD’s quit therapy by the third session.
Yes you are absolutely right about this. However, sometimes BPDs find therapists who are rather clueless, like our first therapist, and they latch onto them and go to “vomit therapy” for YEARS.
Our first counselor– the one who didn’t really want to diagnose my husband because he didn’t like labels, was like that. He was a good man and good at addiction therapy but didn’t know almost anything about BPD. My husband had been seeing him for about 5 years before we met to help him with addictions. OMG the therapist had no clue!! My husband would go there and just use the entire sessions to vomit all this untrue and twisted crap about everyone else,
and the therapist believed him!!And the therapist would tell him things like “maybe your girlfriend [me at the time] is so ungrateful because she has the welfare mentality… that it everyone’s JOB to do everything for her.” (Which is so opposite of me, but he had never met me.) Then my husband would latch onto those things and use those things to throw acid in everyone’s faces every time he needed ammo to hurt someone. (BTW in his case, It’s not enough to ever say thank you to him. He has to be on a pedestal. You have to say “thank you, thank you, thank you, you changed my life forever, you are the best guy I ever met in my life!” — every time he hands you something. You have to extol his virtues on a daily basis or you don’t appreciate him. This is why I am ungrateful, because I say thank you only once or twice after he takes me out to dinner or some such thing and because I only write him love letters once in a while. But I still get thrown in my face “Even Maurice [the therapist] says you are ungrateful because you think you are owed everything.” OMG it’s exhausting.) Anyway, after we were together for a while I demanded to meet Maurice and when he started hearing my side of the story, he couldn’t decide who was crazy, me or my husband, because everything I told him was so wildly different than he had ever heard. And he kept treating him, as I said, like a normal man, and he gave me suggestions on how to deal with him as a normal man. Since I didn’t understand the disorder at that point, I obeyed. And it almost killed me. I don’t remember how I learned about BPD, but it was such a relieving revelation. There was a quiz somewhere that outlined the criteria they use to diagnose. I don’t remember the numbers but if the list had for example 20 items, and if they exhibited 11 traits they were probably BPD, my husband had 19. And a half, lol! After I studied up on it, I KNEW he had it. It was like sunshine after years of darkness. Things finally made sense! I went to the therapist. He was little help. He still wanted to treat my husband like a normal man. But at least his eyes were opened somewhat at at that point and he started to look for clues. THEN, my husband’s sister came to live with us from Brazil. After a few months, she was breaking completely. I took her with me to see the therapist. She told him her side. Suddenly he believed it. And he felt completely duped by my husband… cheated, fooled and lied to. Everything he ever thought he knew about my husband was a lie. And then refused to treat him anymore. You know you are bad when your therapist dumps you, lol!
Later, we went to see another therapist. She was amazingly insightful. After one session with him and I hadn’t even told her my story yet, she came to me and said “He is the most BPD I have ever run across in my life. But you can’t tell him because it is too dangerous for you and he will never listen anyway. And I can’t tell him either because he won’t come back.” On the second session, she called him out on a behavior, because he was spewing his victim crap and she didn’t buy it. He refused to go back. But it was because she was a bad therapist. Of course.
To make a long story short, there was a point that we ended up in different countries and I had nothing to lose so I severed everything and told him all about his disorder. BPDs then do a hoover thing. Not if they are a sister or a cousin or an MIL usually. They will just blame you for being evil and end the relationship. But in the case of a significant other they will become suddenly repentant and promise to fix everything, saying they know it’s their fault etc. They are very convincing. They really seem capable of change. This is how they suck you back in, time after time. Hence the term “hoovering.”Anyway, it wasn’t until he owned the disorder and studied up on it that things even got marginally better. The thing is, now I have the power. We are back in the same country now but live in different houses. I have left a few times, and once out of state. He knows he can’t afford to lose my in any way. Physically, emotionally, financially and legally. Not only would he be alone, devastated, not able to find anyone like me again, but I built his businesses up from glorified yard sales in his part time to an international export and wholesale company. I am not just his secretary but his CEO, I am his legal counsel and defense, his accountant, his business manager, his property manager, his creative genius and all other parts of the business brain. He really really cannot afford to lose me or his entire life goes up in flames. So he stays in that somewhat repentant stage because he can’t let me go. However, it’s amazing that he still brings up “memories’ of things he believes, things I “did to him” that are complete and total fabrications. These people really truly invent their own reality. And how can a therapist change someone’s reality? It almost never works.
Anyway, I don’t say any of this to distract the attention of this thread. I hope I don’t come across that way. But I saw some things in mercyngrace’s post that I thought “same thing/ different package” and I thought maybe I could help at least one person. How I long to be in a position to help more people. I am rather locked in a tall tower with little resources to help anyone. Anyway, that’s an aside. But as I thought about your post, mercyngrace, I thought about what you said about her going to so much therapy and about her claiming her husband has BPD. And more and more lights went on. She probably found therapists that she could suck into her delusions like mine did, and did all sorts of vomit therapy and ammo gathering like mine did. If a therapist ever got wise to her she would move on. And BPDs are sooo good at projection. Whatever crazy things they think or feel or do, they truly project onto the person standing next to them at that moment and really believe it is what that person thinks, feels, and does. It’s a dissociation that I cannot understand but it is so real for them. They have an evil thought, for example, and somewhere in them they know its an evil messed up thought. But they are the victim, the martyr, the Holy Mary Mother of God. It cannot be them. So they project it to the nearest bystander. Now they can still think they are pure and still be the victim. It is truly, truly crazy. But where I am going with this is that through projection, I have no doubt she truly believes her husband is doing these things and she is innocent. She probably went to therapists who she was able to manipulate by only sharing her side, and ones who really don’t get the disorder. The BPD delusion is SO REAL to them, they have the talent of being able to make other people actually see it. And if a therapist catches on, they dump them. Because they were bad therapists of course!
You are right, She will never leave her husband. For one, the entire disorder means she cannot be alone, and also she will lose her scapegoat. And I am willing to bet that 99% of the stories she tells the family about her husband are not even close to true. But she really really believes them. A few of the stories may be based on some truth. But I have learned that these people can induce crazy behavior in people around them. You can only take so much and sometimes you break in desperation and do things you are not proud of. And then it’s further evidence for them that you were the crazy one all along. There is no way out here. You are damned either way.
afterall wrote:Maybe it’s something genetic (anxiety or something) that keeps them from allowing themselves to feel discomfort in order to progress.[/quote}
Yes, from what I read there is a genetic component. But there seems to be an “activating factor” in the environment. It’s like it lies dormant and can either develop or not depending on the family and social structures. In the US it is more common in females. In Latino cultures it is more common in males. After looking at my husband’s family structure and their issues etc, I can totally understand how he got to be that way. Everything makes perfect sense. but in some cases, you really can’t tell what happened to these people to make them this way. I read about twin studies in different environments. Twins’ parent was BPD but raised in two different households. One twin had it, the other didn’t. It does tend to run in families, but doesn’t always develop. If that makes sense.
My mother is schizophrenic; one of my sons is diabetic; I have friends who are bi-polar, depressive, etc. What each of them can do is what each of them can do – and expecting or demanding they be who they can’t be does no good for anyone.
Limiting exposure to harm, however, is a different matter entirely – and there’s a lesson in there about how many traditional members see those whom they preceive to be a threat AND how heterodox members view and treat more traditional members.
Two-edged swords and all that jazz.
afterall wrote:…Featherina, in answer to your insulating question, the answer is yes. But to get to that point, you have to set a lot of boundaries and allow yourself to grow spiritually. It takes great spirituality to have built up enough callouses to be able to interact closely with a BPD and even more if there is some histronic personality there too. And even then, you will have occasions when they will still get the best of you. We are only human and as much as we can try so hard, our natural selves can still feel the hurt in the situations they can create.
I have had a couple of therapists tell me they don’t like to treat BPD because most BPD’s won’t introspect and let the therapist really help them. And most BPD’s quit therapy by the third session. Maybe it’s something genetic (anxiety or something) that keeps them from allowing themselves to feel discomfort in order to progress. Like their own self protective shield.
When your BPD is a member of our faith, it can make it much worse, especially if you all live in the same town! When someone likes to play the victim, believe me, there are plenty of good church members who can get sucked into their stories about the awful person who is causing problems in their family.
Ultimately, I just feel sorry now for anyone with this disorder. It has to be such an unhappy way to live and be. Their lives end up with people distancing from them all over the place and many with conflict, while they sit there not understanding why any of it is happening. They just can’t bring themselves to believe they could be causing some of the conflict or doing anything not right. The control issues are over the top too.
The RX for me has been distance until callouses build up, boundaries, lots of prayer, forgiveness, repentance for my terrible thoughts at times about them and just trying to love them, even if it is from a distance. But also standing my ground and not enabling them to emotionally abuse. I think not enabling them helps them to be better people.
Afterall,I know what you mean.
I was raised by a mother who was diagnosed with BPD, although I only recently found out & most in my family don’t know.
She is like a cult leader, herself, & will persuade others to adopt her good or bad list of people (even within our own family – tearing up relationships).
What’s sad is that some of my siblings believe her unquestioningly.
I won’t get into really personal issues… but I’ll share a part of an email I just sent to a sibling who seems to be blinded somewhat by the face my mom has shown them…
“There are other issues about Mom’s behavior that are cause for boundaries, for myself & I can understand for others. I have even felt the spirit about boundaries, when I started to let them go a alittle… I think all relationships need boundaries, but especially when trust has been breached.Mom had a difficult childhood & I know she’s doing the best she can. She has done a lot for us & I’m very grateful. Yet, I also acknowledge that because she is my mom, & was the primary person responsible for caring for & rasing me, many of my cognitive dysfunctions are linked to my relationship with her. So, I feel it is important to understand her.
She told me she was diagnosed with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), [although she also said she doesn’t think she has BPD – maybe because of negative stigma]. There are various degress of the expression of this… but some symptoms are: emotional instability (irrational rages/inappropriate comments), lying, accusations, problems with intimate relationships, black & white thinking, bottomless emotional neediness because of empty feeling (sometimes causes addictions). BPD is sometimes considered PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) from difficult childhoods with some type of abuse – the exreme of having one’s feelings invalidated, so they become very reactive to others’ feelings. For those with BPD symptoms, there is often a big difference of the self presented publically & the self presented privately. Someone raised by a mother with BPD pointed out, ‘A person with BPD symptoms saves the bad stuff especially for you & other ‘inside” people. This wreaks havoc on a child’s self-esteem, knowing that you alone are not enough to evoke positive attention.’ ”
Still… I am realizing that if I’m not careful, I will adopt BPD characteristics ie, “It’s all their fault & never mine.”
Blame too often gives up power/response-ability. Yet, it is also important, as someone who has felt overwhelming unwarrented blame most of my life, to realize that often some aspects are others’ responsibility & not mine… aka: as you mentioned:
boundaries. Featherina, Another comment that hits home…
Quote:She is like a cult leader, herself, & will persuade others to adopt her good or bad list of people (even within our own family – tearing up relationships).
If that isn’t the harsh reality.
Is this chemical? Is there any kind of legitimate treatment? Is it a structural dysfunction? What causes people to be so lost in their own heads that they lose touch with reality? What detaches them from empathy and the rest of humanity to this degree?
mercyngrace wrote:Is this chemical? Is there any kind of legitimate treatment? Is it a structural dysfunction? What causes people to be so lost in their own heads that they lose touch with reality?
The really bad news… the chemical part is only a small part. There are some different medications that can take the edge off of it. But it doesn’t even begin to fix it really. Therapy for the most part is completely ineffective for mostly the reasons we outlined before. For one. they lie to the therapists and their version of the stories they tell are so very real in their mind the therapists cannot usually see through it. And the second the therapist doesn’t buy into their victim drama, they dump the therapist.
They CANNOT take responsibility for ANY of their behavior.
They change their memories, and the memory will become more and more real as time passes.
They are incapable of empathy.
My husband was at the point for a while where he agreed he had it. He was workable for a short time. Now he is reasoning that maybe he never really did have it and I just like to think I know things about psychology that I really don’t and psychology is a bunch of crap anyway. He also looks back on terrible things he did which he cannot deny, but won’t see himself for the abusive monster he was. He literally sweeps most of it out of his brain. Cannot remember it at all. He just thinks he” was a jerk.” But then he starts to justify by saying stuff like “yeah but everyone else was doing… A,B,C…. And you screwed up with A,B,C and your kids were bad because they did A,B,C…” And this is what a repentant phase looks like.
As everyone knows, the first step in fixing any problem is admitting you have a problem. And BPDs by definition cannot admit they have a problem. This is why it is sometimes talked about as the most untreatable mental illness currently known. There is a therapy known as delectable therapy. I don’t know a lot about it other than the person has to know they have the disorder, fully own it, and really really want to get better. And even then it takes YEARS and it usually is never a full recovery. The illness is that deep. And it sounds like your MIL is pretty far from even considering her problem- as most BPDs are.
Sorry.
RagdollSally, It sounds like you’ve been through a lot.
God bless your heart.
mercyngrace wrote:Is this chemical? Is there any kind of legitimate treatment? Is it a structural dysfunction? What causes people to be so lost in their own heads that they lose touch with reality? What detaches them from empathy and the rest of humanity to this degree?
I don’t know how much is chemical… & even so, how much is inherited & how much is one’s own choice?This is really a difficult distinction for anyone in a relationship with someone with any kind of mental/emotional challenges.
Based on what I’ve read, most of us are born healthy. We may have some genes that contribute to suseptibility to certain environmental triggers, but those triggers must be present for the gene to express themselves. As we were discussing, what we experience emotionally, affects our physiology… so that’s another consideration with BPD. Then, there’s also the “inherited” family dysfunction… IE: My grandma was an alcoholic, which some think is “hereditary” – but IMO, it is not the alchoholism that is inherited, but the passed on methods of dealing (or not dealing) with stress… it can be something other than alochol as the chosen addiction/escape. (There’s studies that suggest emotional inheritance.)
A positive way of looking at any “mental illness” could be “Positive Disintegration” which is the idea that stress is needed to develop one’s character and personality to its full potential. It’s different from “stages of development” because not all people go through it & there is no single stage sequence. One of the requirements seems to be “overexcitability” which is one common symptom of BPD. Other requirements of positive disintegration are skills, abilities & a drive toward individual growth.
IMO, Those with BPD symptoms could possibly be an incredible expression of human potential, if they can get past their obstacles.
MercyNGrace, I’m still learning about BPD, so don’t take my word on this… but it seems that “Linehan’s (DBT) therapy” has shown to be most effective in treating BPD. It goes along with the idea that BPD is both biological & environmental, so I’m guessing that treatment involves both meds & therapy. Therapy aims at improving Mindfullness Meditation, Interpersonal, Distress Tollerance & Emotional Regulation skills. My impression of what would help in all of these cognitive therapy attempts, would be yoga, or somethink like it, like Tai Chi.
Although I really don’t like labels, I have found more compassion for my mom, after realizing this diagnosis. I realize more the extent of damage done by the abuse she suffered as a child… more than any child should have to. Many think that BPD should be renamed to something like, “Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Related to Childhood Trauma” – except I’d also add the “overexcitability” aspect mentioned in relation to Positive Disintegration.
The reason why they lack empathy is because they never received it themselves (generally speaking). It’s interesting because a couple of years ago, I was kindof trying to help someone who had BPD on a psych. forum. Then, just recently, after realizing my mom had been diagnosed with BPD, I’m back to working with the same guy. I know he has a good heart, even though, he’s a prickly porcupine. He’s the one who gave me a new perspective, by introducing the concept of positive disintegration (& Brian Regan
🙂 ). Very smart guy, but still struggling in other ways. I’ve prayed about how to help him & have felt the need to focus on expressing empathy, at least at this point.Quote:Is this chemical? Is there any kind of legitimate treatment? Is it a structural dysfunction? What causes people to be so lost in their own heads that they lose touch with reality? What detaches them from empathy and the rest of humanity to this degree?
How do you view these toxic relationships in regard to the Plan of Happiness/Plan of Salvation?“Hard to deal with” is not a sin, but it can be hard to see those with these tendencies to be Christ-like and loving, which is the greatest commandment. But how much can they control it? How much agency do they have? How much accountability to God?
If mortality is the great test…and we get one shot at it to determine our place in the heavens…how does it make sense God makes some people go through life with these conditions?
We can be loving and understanding, but still need boundaries with people to protect ourselves. Right?
Heber13 wrote:How do you view these toxic relationships in regard to the Plan of Happiness/Plan of Salvation?
“Hard to deal with” is not a sin, but it can be hard to see those with these tendencies to be Christ-like and loving, which is the greatest commandment. But how much can they control it? How much agency do they have? How much accountability to God?
If mortality is the great test…and we get one shot at it to determine our place in the heavens…how does it make sense God makes some people go through life with these conditions?
We can be loving and understanding, but still need boundaries with people to protect ourselves. Right?
I’ll be honest, Heber, the situation is so stressful that I can’t even think of how it fits into the POH/POS.
I want to act out of compassion but I end up acting out of self-preservation.
PS I don’t believe in the one-shot deal. I believe it’s all progress and that this life is one more rung on the ladder.
Heber, I am with mercyngrace. The more I turn things in my mind the more I cannot accept this one life is it. For more, look at http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3613 You can love these people without standing next to them… and few of us are at the level of perfection that we can justify sacrificing out mental and emotional health to do so. It’s OK to realize your own limitations, IMO.
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