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I entered the bishops office and we made some small talk about work and my kids. DD is a senior this year and what are her plan after graduation. He then asks me about my tithing and I tell him that I am working on it. He asks me what I am doing to “work on it” and I tell him that I am reading my scriptures, praying, and drawing closer to my savior Jesus Christ. He asked me if I felt that it would be helpful to start paying my tithing and I agreed that this step would certainly bridge the gap (there would be no further “working on it” because there is simply “doing it”).
Bishop recounted how we have now been meeting like this for 7 years and that it seems that I have not made any progress. He also referenced something that I said a few years ago and challenged me to pray to God that I might come to a different realization (see post above). He is aware of my circumstance and the reason why I stopped paying but I have now allowed that to become a stumbling block and a barrier to my progression. He challenged me to make a change and to do it soon, within the next few months. To me, his “challenge” felt like an unstoppable force against an immovable object. After his challenge, he waited for my response and I felt very uncomfortable. I said that I would “do what I can.” This released some of the tension enough for us to pause to invite DW and DS into the room.
I asked DW if she wanted to declare on behalf of DD. She did not so I declared DD to be a part-tithe payer. Bishop asked DS and DW to declare and they self declared as full tithe payers. Bishop said that “the Lord loves you for your tithing obedience.” There was some discussion about all the wonderful things that are happening right now with tithing money in building temples and how this is also is evidence of being in the last days.
Bishop then turned to the topic of wanting to see 15 year old DS more in the Wednesday night activities. Admittedly, the activities are much better run than they were just a year ago but my son still is not motivated to go. Bishop said something about how it is the boys’ responsibility to plan the meetings and they have turned it completely over to them and how wonderful that is. I know that this is not motivating for DS as he abhors planning meetings and he has not internalized the idea that this is his “priesthood responsibility.” I asked DS afterwards if he would like to start attending LDS activities more frequently or to continue to do what we are currently doing which is to compare the announced activities for 3 local churches and possible other community activities and decide what we would most like to attend at that point. DS would like to continue with the current plan.
Afterwards DW and I had a discussion in our kitchen about how awfully short on “ministering” I felt after the tithing declaration. I shared about how some church pastors or ministers are really good at ministering to the “flock.” I do not feel ministered to. I feel like no improvement that I might make will ever be good enough if it isn’t full tithe, TR holding, temple attendance – and even then I’m sure there will be other things to challenge me to do. Part of the reason for this is the whole point of the meeting is tithing declaration. It is not the bishop’s ministering meeting. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as the bishop’s ministering meeting. That doesn’t seem to be important enough to set aside time for.
I feel like there in an encouraging tool and a scolding tool in the metaphorical toolbox and the bishop only knows how to use the scolding tool. Admittedly, he is quite frustrated with me after 7 years without becoming a success story.
I don’t blame the bishop. He is an unpaid conscript/volunteer. In all this time, I have yet to be fully honest with him because I am afraid this would be labeled apostasy and would limit my options in the future. An example is my bishop’s difficulty with the idea that I might have an eternal relationship with my deceased daughter regardless of my tithe paying status. If I were to fully open my kimono, I’m afraid that there might be no going back. We both play our roles in a system that we are powerless to change.
You’re a better man than I for staying LDS with a bishop who says things like that to you. Roy wrote:I asked DW if she wanted to declare on behalf of DD. She did not so I declared DD to be a part-tithe payer. Bishop asked DS and DW to declare and they self declared as full tithe payers. Bishop said that “the Lord loves you for your tithing obedience.”
I would have been very tempted to ask why they have to buy the Lord’s love. Though, I imagine such a retort would not improve relations with your bishop. But more seriously, tithing is one thing I didn’t have a problem with until recently. What your bishop said is very inline with the church’s recent messaging on it, and that’s something that isn’t sitting right with me.
Roy wrote:I don’t blame the bishop. He is an unpaid conscript/volunteer. In all this time, I have yet to be fully honest with him because I am afraid this would be labeled apostasy and would limit my options in the future. An example is my bishop’s difficulty with the idea that I might have an eternal relationship with my deceased daughter regardless of my tithe paying status. If I were to fully open my kimono, I’m afraid that there might be no going back. We both play our roles in a system that we are powerless to change.
This is why I’m glad I haven’t aired my concerns to my bishop as I’ve been tempted to in the past. I’m sure my experience would be similar to yours. It takes a special bishop to let someone be where they are at and have their own beliefs, even if they are a little heterodox. It’s a shame that your bishop isn’t one of those.
Roy wrote:
This confirms for me that my bishop really is not interested in meeting me halfway or getting to know me and my family’s unique situation. He isn’t able to soften his approach, he cannot conceptualize or navigate the gray areas, he knows only black and white.
Once I was able to take a step back from orthodoxy I started to notice that there’s a correlated personality type that church culture likes to steer everyone towards. There’s a shared expectation for external behaviors, same shared goals, same shared life purpose. There’s a mold at church. After reading your experience, your bishop appears to be enmeshed in the “one size” the church presents and he sees you as an “all” that has to be molded to fit.
The church does an exceptionally poor job of ministering to the individual. The church’s approach is to present an offering and expect the person to adapt such that they feel ministered to by their offering. Your experience is an example of this… what does the church do with the member that isn’t interested in temples? The approach is to “fix” the person such that they gain interest in temples.
Don’t fit the church mold? Your church experience will be largely dominated by people trying to get you to fit the mold.
Roy wrote:
Afterwards DW and I had a discussion in our kitchen about how awfully short on “ministering” I felt after the tithing declaration.I shared about how some church pastors or ministers are really good at ministering to the “flock.” I do not feel ministered toPart of the reason for this is the whole point of the meeting is tithing declaration. It is not the bishop’s ministering meeting. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as the bishop’s ministering meeting. That doesn’t seem to be important enough to set aside time for.
Over the years I’ve heard many say that tithing declaration is more about giving the bishop an opportunity to meet with every family. I get the feeling that this apologetic stems from some recognition that a special meeting dedicated to asking people about tithing isn’t a good look. If a yearly meeting with each family was the goal, they could do that without the tithing pretext/ulterior motive.
Personal story time…
Years ago my family took in a family member that was in hospice care. The family member required that we be with them 24/7, it was an extremely difficult time for our family. All in all, there were three spiritual groups involved; our church, the family member’s church, and hospice (they have their own chaplain).
Family member’s church: They brought meals in the very beginning. Their pastor showed up periodically throughout the time we were caregivers. Hospice: Their chaplain showed up regularly. Our church: Nothing. In fact I felt the need to defend why we were “inactive” to people at church (caregiving required one of us be home at all times). So instead of receiving support I felt pressure to excuse my family’s failure to meet the demands of church activity. A few people at church knew of our situation but to most we were simply less valiant. The pastor and hospice chaplain were very obviously trained therapists. When I stay trained I mean a degree in therapy and specialized training, not a 30 minute powerpoint presentation. It’s not really fair to compare and contrast that with what we find in our church. It’s unreasonable to expect a bishop in a LDS ward to provide the same level of counseling… but that’s what bishops in our church are up against if we’re comparing.
Pastor and hospice chaplain are jobs. A bishop in the LDS church is more like an amateur hobby that is thrust onto someone with an entirely different profession (usually).
Another disclaimer that I’ll give is that our family didn’t ask for help. Maybe we’re too prideful to ask for help, I don’t know, all I know is that it was too hard to ask for help, so we didn’t (didn’t really know what to ask for). The pastor and hospice chaplain didn’t need to be asked, they just helped where they could. They’re probably also well acquainted with dealing with people that don’t know how to ask for help, so there’s that.
If we had asked I’m 100% positive that our church would have done something.
I will say that if the bishop or ministers did visit our home during this time, I would have felt far more free and open with our spiritual struggles with the pastor and the hospice chaplain than I would have felt with the bishop or ministers. There’s just too much baggage and expectations when it comes to “ministering” in the LDS church.
Again, “ministering” in the church is more about getting people into the mold because once you’re in that mold they know how to “minister” to you. I know it’s cliché but our approach to ministering is giving people a very specific problem because that problem fits the only answers we have.
In your case, go to the temple. Don’t want to? Change to want to.
I gave up on tithing declaration/settlement years ago. Right around that time where they upped tithing declaration season to the beginning of September. I’m sure it varies from ward to ward, I suspect it’s a better and more intimate process in smaller wards, but it’s clear to me that the main goal of tithing declaration is to put a check by one of the boxes (full, partial, non) for everyone in the ward. It goes against a lot of cultural programming but I stopped doing tithing declaration when I stopped caring what box was checked beside my name.
Full tithe payer but with no input from me the bishop marked me as a non-payer? Gotta be comfortable with that eventuality. To what end does that box serve? When it comes time to call a new bishop (lol)? When it comes time to create a ward? Not my monkey, not my circus. I also do not care for my worthiness (or whatever) being measured by the amount of money I contribute.
The practice is antithetical to spirituality. At least to me.
When this topic first came up, this was my response & it really hasn’t changed. Minyan Man wrote:
Since we became active again, I personally decided that I need & want to financially support the church. This is similar to a gym membershipfor me. If I go to the gym, I expect to pay a fee for attending. My only stipulation is: I decide what a tithe is & how it’s calculated. I feel
justified because there is no official church definition for what constitutes a full tithe. If there is a definition, someone please tell me.
If someone in an interview asks me if I’m a full tithe payer, I say yes & don’t explain it any further.
This view isn’t for everyone I know.
The only thing I would add is: as a church, we put too much energy in this
Quote:TR, Goals, & Tithing
.
At my final judgement, I don’t expect God to put much emphasis into the finances of my life. He may ask “were you generous with your time
& resources”. This is not like an IRS audit.
We did sign up with our Bishop for the tithing settlement. It will be short & sweet. Our response will be “yes we are”.
I will not get more specific then that.
The goal is exactly what you know it is: Help you become “fully active” (including temple attendance). It is from a core of real love, but it does not come from a place of understanding. My advice:
You need to decide what you want and communicate it to your Bishop. If you do want to feel pressured by leadership, tell him that. Tell him you appreciate, deeply, his love and concern but that pressuring you only will make it worse – and you don’t want that to happen. You want a healthy relationship with him and your ward family, and this type of visit will harm that relationship right now.
Old-Timer wrote:
You need to decide what you want and communicate it to your Bishop. If you do want to feel pressured by leadership, tell him that. Tell him you appreciate, deeply, his love and concern but that pressuring you only will make it worse – and you don’t want that to happen. You want a healthy relationship with him and your ward family, and this type of visit will harm that relationship right now.
You are correct that this pressure is harming my relationship with the church. I actually felt a little depressed for a few days after the encounter. I discussed with my wife setting this boundary with my bishop. I could tell him that, after 7 years, we both know that the tithing thing isn’t likely to change and the pressure is just hurting the relationship. I am fairly certain that the bishop would perceive me setting that boundary as me becoming more obstinate/recalcitrant and less open to correction.
The fear is that he would respond by limiting my participation in priesthood ordinances moving forward.
This current status quo has been put in place by me in hopes of ordaining DS to the MP. We are now rather close to that paying dividends. DS is now 16. In addition, our bishop is due to be released and that could alter things considerably. Bishop did say that he wants to see growth from me soon, but the way that things go, the topic might not come up again until next year’s tithing settlement. DW and I agreed to stay the course, at least for now, and hope for the best.
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