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BobDixon wrote:
I would really love to go back to the temple again and could probably come up with a way to answer the questions honestly, but in general I just believe the cultural restrictions are wrong and have no intention of being an orthodox Mormon again. The temple is the gateway to eternal life and I just don’t believe moderate consumption of coffee or alcohol has any relevance to anything Jesus said in the bible about salvation. These things are metrics of your obedience to church leaders, and that has little to do with trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. I could play the game. I did it for 20+ years. I just refuse to.
Even after nearly seven years of thoroughly exploring evangelical Protestantism, the Book of Mormon is the single best expression of my personal faith. If I can’t be “saved” based on those things, what is wrong with this picture?
You are saved entirely based upon the atonement of Jesus Christ — that is the eternal Doctrine. While “obedience” is also an eternal principle, the word of wisdom, the amount of tithing you pay, and other requirements of the church are not eternal principles in and of themselves.We’ll discuss the word of wisdom when that question comes up.
I don’t see attending the temple, or the temple recommend interview as a game, but rather, a self-examination of one’s own worthiness. The questions are to be asked as written, and the interviewer is to seek the spirit in interpreting the responses. If you are tentative and doubtful, then the interviewer may seek to clarify your doubts. On the other hand, if you have come to a confident position of where you stand, confirmed by the spirit, then there is no reason for doubt or being tentative.
wayfarer wrote:BobDixon wrote:I would really love to go back to the temple again and could probably come up with a way to answer the questions honestly, but in general I just believe the cultural restrictions are wrong and have no intention of being an orthodox Mormon again. The temple is the gateway to eternal life and I just don’t believe moderate consumption of coffee or alcohol has any relevance to anything Jesus said in the bible about salvation. These things are metrics of your obedience to church leaders, and that has little to do with trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. I could play the game. I did it for 20+ years. I just refuse to.
Even after nearly seven years of thoroughly exploring evangelical Protestantism, the Book of Mormon is the single best expression of my personal faith. If I can’t be “saved” based on those things, what is wrong with this picture?
You are saved entirely based upon the atonement of Jesus Christ — that is the eternal Doctrine. While “obedience” is also an eternal principle, the word of wisdom, the amount of tithing you pay, and other requirements of the church are not eternal principles in and of themselves.We’ll discuss the word of wisdom when that question comes up.
I don’t see attending the temple, or the temple recommend interview as a game, but rather, a self-examination of one’s own worthiness. The questions are to be asked as written, and the interviewer is to seek the spirit in interpreting the responses. If you are tentative and doubtful, then the interviewer may seek to clarify your doubts. On the other hand, if you have come to a confident position of where you stand, confirmed by the spirit, then there is no reason for doubt or being tentative.
Probably my biggest remaining “issue” right now is the way we translate what Jesus said about being “saved” to current LDS doctrine and practice. During my TBM years, 20+, full activity, daily scripture study, I always thought baptism was the gateway to heaven and the temple ordinances were extra stuff leading to godhood that I wasn’t all that interested in. After a lot of study and discussion with my bishop I came to understand that I was mistaken. When Jesus talks about being “saved”, enjoying “eternal life”, going to “heaven”, etc., according to current LDS doctrine the gateway to that is temple marriage and not baptism. Conference talks allude to it, and it’s clearly stated in “True to the Faith”, which is the closest doctrinal statement we have. You may say that the atonement paid the price for your sins, but the sealing ordinances are the delivery vehicle for the full measure of the atonement, and I just can’t buy into that.
As far as the TR questions I don’t see where sustaining the leaders as prophets seers and revelators is a significant measure of personal worthiness. If you want to reword the question to sustaining them as good men doing the best they can and entitled to revelation in their callings, that I could support.
Bob, I hear ya. Of course, when I study church history, I see that the prophets used to say different things about what was needed for eternal life, some things that now we no longer teach or practice. So if things can change, then perhaps those feelings you have that don’t seem right to you are telling you something you should listen to. Perhaps it comes down to separating out the church and the gospel. The church has current teachings and standards that point to the temple. The gospel can include those temple symbols to enrich a life, but there are other teachings of what is most important (which don’t require the checklists to find God).
I love the temple and the peace in there. I find it very dependent on the personality of the bishop to grant or deny the recommend. Answers that work for one bishop, do not for another. Some bishops take the yes/no answers at face value, some feel it is their duty as judge in israel to probe when they feel there are doubts or thoughts going on behind the scenes.
BobDixon wrote:Probably my biggest remaining “issue” right now is the way we translate what Jesus said about being “saved” to current LDS doctrine and practice. During my TBM years, 20+, full activity, daily scripture study, I always thought baptism was the gateway to heaven and the temple ordinances were extra stuff leading to godhood that I wasn’t all that interested in. After a lot of study and discussion with my bishop I came to understand that I was mistaken. When Jesus talks about being “saved”, enjoying “eternal life”, going to “heaven”, etc., according to current LDS doctrine the gateway to that is temple marriage and not baptism. Conference talks allude to it, and it’s clearly stated in “True to the Faith”, which is the closest doctrinal statement we have. You may say that the atonement paid the price for your sins, but the sealing ordinances are the delivery vehicle for the full measure of the atonement, and I just can’t buy into that.
There are a vast number of speculations as to what Salvation means versus Exaltation. There is a lot of confusion between the two terms. In general principle, “Salvation” is the free gift of the atonement to all, and the church teaches that ‘baptism’ is a necessary component to be ‘saved’. That baptism can occur either in this life or by proxy in the next. So, if you’re resurrected into a kingdom of glory, you’re saved. Only the Sons of Perdition are ultimately damned to Outer Darkness.In mormon cosmology, the Telestial, Terrestial, and Celestial kingdoms are all kingdoms of glory. They are all heavens. In the Celestial, there is a further breakdown into at least three subkingdoms or degrees. Exaltation is the degree into which one is ‘exalted’ or ‘rewarded’ for one’s merits in life. It is only in the highest degree of the Celestial where “celestial marriage” is required.
What I find really interesting is that if we define “Salvation” as being the free gift of the atonement, that one realizes through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance as an ongoing process of life, and Baptism, both with water and with the Holy Ghost, that we realize Salvation quite early in our life. We are saved the moment we commit to the Savior’s path. Our “Exaltation”, is the extent to which we have a crown in the heavens. This definition of Salvation and Exaltation are remarkably compatible with mainstream christianity, although neither side will readily agree on anything.
Just bear in mind that this is ALL speculative. There have been so many ways discussed in the various talks by the prophets that one cannot derive an absolute cosmology of the hierarchy of the heavens. If we realize that ONLY the speculation of the current prophets count as being ‘doctrine’, and then only if they are in perfect harmony with the standard works, I’m going to suggest that all this speculation is immaterial to how I act or operate today.
There is another definitional statement that “eternal life” is only the life God enjoys, and the only way we will achieve eternal life is to become gods in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. This is stated because in one section of Joseph Smith’s revelations, he converts the adjective ‘eternal’ into a name of god noun, “Eternal”, therefore by that definition, the ONLY Eternal Life is that which god has, and by extension gods. This is one definition, a specialized tautology taught by JS and BY at one point in time. It is not a generally accepted definition of the term “eternal”, lower case. In other teachings, “eternal life” is what we are in the middle of right now. Since if we are eternal (an adjective meaning from eternity to eternity), then we are in the midst of eternal life right now. Some people kind of teach that this is “life eternal” and not “Eternal Life”. You can see where it’s just simply a game of definitions.
Should we want to discuss this further, may I suggest you open a new topic on what “etermal life” means? It really isn’t part of the TR interview topic.
I will reply to Bob as we work through the TR questions. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Which by the way….lets roll. The first two questions are boring and give-mes….universal in every way..IMO Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:Which by the way….lets roll. The first two questions are boring and give-mes….universal in every way
one a day…19 days total.next few will get interesting
When we are done, I will condense the threads into a document. We can post it in the support library on our main site. It can be a collection of ideas about the TR questions, a lot more in depth than the section we have on it in the classic “How to Stay …” article. Brian Johnston wrote:When we are done, I will condense the threads into a document. We can post it in the support library on our main site. It can be a collection of ideas about the TR questions, a lot more in depth than the section we have on it in the classic “How to Stay …” article.
Are you volunteering to edit? wonderful — I’d be glad to help you!
wayfarer wrote:Are you volunteering to edit? wonderful — I’d be glad to help you!
Yes. Would love to work on this with you.
Folks, Please read this and comment if you’re following these threads”>(you can also send me PM)
[/color] I’m enjoying these threads and appreciate the responses immensely. I know that one concept per day is slow, but I really think considered opinion on each issue is useful. I separated God, Jesus Christ, and HG, because they are different things to different people.
Here is my plan for the rest:
3. Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?(July 7th) I have written this one up already, and will release tomorrow. I suspect this will be a difficult topic for some, and hope to get views on the restoration.
4. Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?(July 8th) This may be the most difficult for unconventional mormons to answer. It certainly gives me pause. Do any of you think this should be broken up?
5. Do you live the law of chastity?(July 9th) Chastity is almost not worth putting to discussion, but I would like to be clear my opinion that petting, while inadvisable, pornography, also inadvisable, and masturbation are not violations of the law of chastity.
6. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?(July 10th) Although this shouldn’t be an issue associated with unconventional mormons, I think the question causes me more pause than most. (July 11th)
7. Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?(July 12th) This one may be difficult, because many of us agree with some of who FAIR thinks are anti-mormons (e.g. John Dehlin, MormonThink).
8. Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?(July 13th) I think this one will engender not much discussion, but may pose difficulties to those who are ‘chillin’, church-wise; as perhaps it should.
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?(July 14th) I think this one is is difficult to answer in the absolute, but shouldn’t engender much discussion. Actually, I think unconventional mormons think more about this than many of the others.
Need to split #10 in two:
10a. Are you a full-tithe payer?(July 15th) I intend on expressing what i feel is acceptable full tithe, with an openness to almost any definition.
10b. Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?This one will be very complex for me. I have had quite a strong spiritual experience on this one, where unity with other people is more important than compliance with the specifics of this law. I think obedience to the
entireWord of Wisdom is important, but subject to interpretation. 11. Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?I’m not even sure this one should come up. Hopefully this is obvious.
12. If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?This should engender some discussion. I think there are the covenants, then the garments. two issues, maybe broken up?
13. Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?worth a discussion about confessions and what is confessible.
14. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?A wrap-up on the topic of ‘worthiness’.
I like the idea of serializing the discussion and giving it time. A day per bullet point isn’t unreasonable. It allows more people to participate in an effective way. Most people can’t camp out all day on the forums, or shouldn’t (cough … me). I personally like spreading it out so I can have more time to collect my thoughts and have discussions.
I wonder if doing 2 or 3 a day would be a good approach? bc_pg wrote:I wonder if doing 2 or 3 a day would be a good approach?
it takes me an average of an hour to write one of these…sometimes more. some of the shorties might be good to do multiple in a day, but the next two may take more a day each to adequately discuss — they’re biggies.I like your plan Wayfarer.
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