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I like the quote nibbler posted. I think the lesson we are taught is to search the canonized scripture and see how what the leaders say are in line with scripture. Quote:D&C 89:1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
That is your justification, your sincere interpretation of scripture.
Katzpur wrote:I have an enormous probably with the idea that a revelation that was given by the Lord as “a word of wisdom” and not as a “commandment” has become such a defining factor in who’s a “good temple-worthy Mormon” and who isn’t. I have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving and another a Christmas, and when I go for my temple recommend, I always say that I keep the Word of Wisdom. I’m probably just trying to justify my behavior when I say that I keep the spirit of the law, but I fail to see what I’m doing as all that bad.
I have no problem with your approach. As long as you feel at peace with God as you sit in front of the interviewer…you are fine to answer according to your conscience and your interpretation.
I don’t think you’ll find support by leaders, and there are many quotes and handbook sections that would try to establish it is only “one way” to observe this properly with not even a single sip ever.
In the grand scheme of things…it just isn’t that important, unless as you sit in the temple or in the interview you are squirmy and sweating about not feeling worthy. You don’t want duplicity. You want to feel unconstrained to be open to God’s spirit and revelation. I think only you can decide how you feel about it.
You’re also allowed to repent. So…if you say a cuss word…you might feel the need to ask god to help you try harder, if that was important to you. Same for a holiday glass of wine. But a can of soda or a sip of wine at the holiday…I can’t imagine it matters.
Perhaps do a test. Sip some wine. See if you feel God is in your life, if you feel spiritual, if you connect to whatever you believe, any differently than how you feel it when you abstain from alcohol. Or if you feel unworthy and dark and need to stop taking sips. Then follow your heart and conscience…no justification or mental gymnastics needed…simply answer the temple recommend question if you feel worthy or not according to how you feel.
I prefer my spirit guiding me rather than quotes from the 1800s as my justification. God knows my heart.
great to see that these topics are still relevant. i think we have to grapple with the idea that revelation comes line upon line and precept upon precept, and historical “revelation” often reflects the “lesser portion of god’s word which he doth impart to the children of men.”
often, god’s inspiration is mixed with very human ideas…the temperance movement, etc., or even, as Leonard Arrington discovered, the need to rein in imports for expensive goods like wine, tobacco, coffee and tea.
and these have created the version of the word if wisdomwe have today. and living that law, i became clinically obese, with stage two hypertension, fatty liver steatohepatitis, and a host of other problems, including a five year death sentence from my doctor if i didnt change things. for the past two years, well after starting this survey, i have lost sixty pounds, yet i frequently enjoy adult beverages in moderation. i exercise, i enjoy life more than ever. today, going to my doctor, i have no evidence of liver disease, and my blood pressure, which was pushing 160/100 with medication, is 120/70 with no medication.
the spirit of the word of wisdom, updated with modern medical best practice, works extremely well, and can transform your life…it certainly transformed mine. the letter of the law as practiced by LDS today? a formula for gad health.
there is so much more good in mormonism when we set aside the literalism and control dynamic of the current corportate control paradigm.
Wayfarer, I have enjoyed reading this topic and your views regarding it. I had a glass of wine with friends at a fundraising trivia night. I did not feel that I lost any spiritual connection and I quite enjoyed to relaxing effect and wonderful conversation with friends. Unfortunately I find that it is quite difficult for some friends to open up and communicate in a friendship building manner until they have had an adult beverage. J have found building close relationships in the church very difficult as many people are to busy and see coming for dinner as work rather than relaxing. I believe it would profit many and build many great close relationships if a drink was allowed. Human closeness and interaction is invigorating for the soul. Moderation is the key. I do know many people including my husband who do want to abstain completely from these things as they fear they do not have sufficient self control to enjoy them. I am happy to support my husband in this way and abstain for him. Although I would enjoy a relaxing beverage from time to time it strangely brings peace to my soul. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I am enjoying the learning process.
Happy never after wrote:Wayfarer, I have enjoyed reading this topic and your views regarding it. I had a glass of wine with friends at a fundraising trivia night. I did not feel that I lost any spiritual connection and I quite enjoyed to relaxing effect and wonderful conversation with friends. Unfortunately I find that it is quite difficult for some friends to open up and communicate in a friendship building manner until they have had an adult beverage. J have found building close relationships in the church very difficult as many people are to busy and see coming for dinner as work rather than relaxing. I believe it would profit many and build many great close relationships if a drink was allowed. Human closeness and interaction is invigorating for the soul. Moderation is the key. I do know many people including my husband who do want to abstain completely from these things as they fear they do not have sufficient self control to enjoy them. I am happy to support my husband in this way and abstain for him. Although I would enjoy a relaxing beverage from time to time it strangely brings peace to my soul.
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I am enjoying the learning process.
Quote:Although I would enjoy a relaxing beverage from time to time it strangely brings peace to my soul.
It was through the spiritual process of AA that I found, for me, that the ‘peace’ that came from alcohol was pseudo-peace. The closeness that I found with others using alcohol, didn’t last when the effects wore off. Had to keep recreating the conditions to recreate the feelings. It was a lie of the flesh that told me the solution to the misery of my soul was through external balms. SometimesI think the flesh can sense the longing of the soul for reconnection to Spirit; it registers/experiences the misery somehow and tries to provide worldly answers to a spiritual problem.
Discovering the many ways I had unconsciously sought to either escape or pseudo-fill the ‘hole in my soul’ was one of the fascinating outcomes of practicing inner awareness through mind tools.
“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” – Rumi
tblue, I agree with what you’ve said: Quote:It was through the spiritual process of AA that I found, for me, that the ‘peace’ that came from alcohol was pseudo-peace.
I agree completely.
tblue wrote:It was through the spiritual process of AA that I found, for me, that the ‘peace’ that came from alcohol was pseudo-peace.
My twice a year glass of wine doesn’t bring me either peace or pseudo-peace, nor does it make me feel like part of the “in crowd.” Rather, I really, really enjoy the taste of a good glass of wine. I don’t have a problem with teetotalers (particularly when there are issues of addiction involved), but I sure do wish people could just get over the idea that so many members of the Church seem to see a glass of wine as right up there with murder and adultery in terms of seriousness. Nah, I know I’m exaggerating, but I see so many other sins as being so much more damaging to one’s self and others. The emphasis on something that wasn’t even given as a commandment in the first place just bothers me to no end.I agree completely with what you said. I also believe in the quote by JS: Quote:I teach them correct principles & they govern themselves.
Quote:Katzpur wrote:tblue wrote:It was through the spiritual process of AA that I found, for me, that the ‘peace’ that came from alcohol was pseudo-peace.
My twice a year glass of wine doesn’t bring me either peace or pseudo-peace, nor does it make me feel like part of the “in crowd.” Rather, I really, really enjoy the taste of a good glass of wine. I don’t have a problem with teetotalers (particularly when there are issues of addiction involved), but I sure do wish people could just get over the idea that so many members of the Church seem to see a glass of wine as right up there with murder and adultery in terms of seriousness. Nah, I know I’m exaggerating, but I see so many other sins as being so much more damaging to one’s self and others. The emphasis on something that wasn’t even given as a commandment in the first place just bothers me to no end.Being young and inexperienced in the world of alcohol I can appreciate your view and fears of being controlled by a substance through a false feeling of “peacefulness”. Personally I have not yet experienced addictions in my life so I appreciate your opinion and warning of not being fooled by a false or short term pleasure.
Ive been thinking about the effect that I enjoyed as I had one glass of wine with friends and have been thinking about why I really enjoyed the evening.
My desire is not driven by wanting to be excepted but to increase the connection within our relationships. We are far away from our family and I do miss that deep connection where we may share more intimate details of our thoughts and feelings in life. I enjoy having a deep conversation with friends but I have found more so since I have had children our friends also with children and usually much older than me have found it difficult to relax and open up regarding there true feelings to wards subjects.
I think it is interesting that when they have a glass of wine they are able to relax and communicate there feelings more openly. Fortunately my friends are more inclined to have a glass with dinner but I have never witnessed any of them taking it further than that so I’m assuming it may be more of a mindset. Somehow the ritual of a wine or a beer allows them to inter into a space where they relax and put down there guards from the day. It seams like almost a form of mediation? I wonder if there heart rate decreased during this time.
:I was down by the ocean a few days ago without the children. I went and sat by the ocean sipped a coffee and tried to completely take in my surroundings. Listen to the sounds take in the environment and the views. It gave me a very similar feeling to the night I enjoyed with my friends. I think what I may be in need of is some good meditation. The feeling of the “spirit or my inner conscious” and connecting with it.
I know that alcohol may not be the safest or most beneficial way to connect with friends but when kids (I have 4 kids 5 and under) and families are involved there is not much opportunity to go hiking with a girlfriend or enjoy peaceful conversations, down by the ocean. I believe those experiences would create a deeply rich connecting experience but life is so busy and demanding and those experiences are rare and hard to come by so for now I don’t see A glass or wine with friends on maybe a monthly occasion to be completely negative. But I have the utmost respect for those who choose to abstain from those substances, I understand that is also not an easy choice.
I am only young and my experience is not vast but I am trying to navigate my own beliefs and thoughts post faith crisis. My faith is constantly changing and evolving.
🙂 🙂 Beginning thread necromancy ritual. 
Old Timer wrote:
Yes – I follow the current, “accepted” interpretation of the WofW AND what I want to follow concerning the spirit of D&C 89. I eat meat regularly but in quantities I consider to be moderate (sparingly, very loosely defined); I eat fruits and grains and try to make it as healthy as I can (and I’ve focused more on that over the last few months – and lost weight accordingly, btw); I don’t partake of any currently “prohibited” substances (both because of what I know about myself and because I don’t care about those substances in any way and won’t partake simply to take a stance of any kind); I love the general idea of the strong sacrificing for the good of the weak; I believe the focus on future addiction peddlers was prophetic to the core; etc.I don’t agree with lots of the justifications other people use to follow the WofW, but mine makes sense to me. I have no desire to not follow this one.
This pretty much reflects my sentiments on the matter.
I have a few additional thoughts.
I have personally adopted moderation of sugar starting at the beginning of this year; I eat sugar like most people drink alcohol- special occasions mostly. I feel better overall and I love the effects, though I miss enjoying cookies and such. But the thing is I sorta feel guilty when I eat sweets now. Could it be that guilt from breaking the word of wisdom is conditioned into us by the culture of the church?
- I suspect that if the WoW were given in our day, it would say a little something about sugar, weed, and narcotics.
- There is too much focus on the “Do nots” of the WoW and I think this really misses the mark. These take up only a small portion of the overall content of D&C 89, and we do a very poor job about following the rest of it. If you’ve seen the Cannon Center recently, you can definitely see an overabundance of meat and sweets.
- The Word of Wisdom is a massive “commitment paywall” for baptisms and retention. Smoking is a particularly obvious habit that is especially hard to quit. Instead of forcing smokers to quit, we should help and encourage them. Coffee is a huge part of western culture and very hard to distance yourself from. Then when you throw in the caffeine misinterpretation that gets thrust on new members sometimes, you get disastrous results. Alcohol is probably easier to cut out, but what do I know?
- I’ve heard that beer was once considered a “mild drink” so even the line on alcohol is hazy.
- While it was pragmatic at the time it was instituted, I don’t think it’s necessarily a good idea to retain the policy that the WoW be a Baptism/TR question. I respect the GA’s judgement and sustain the decision, but I still feel okay disagreeing with them. Even still, I think it would be good to continue to encourage good health habits and following the principles of the WoW and require that all official church functions not have coffee, tea, or alcohol present. It would also be appropriate to continue to expect full WoW adherence from missionaries, GAs, and unit leadership.
I do save quite a bit of money from observing the WoW, so there’s that. I also like my liver.
Unrelated: I’ve never had alcohol, but I suspect I would be quite the heavyweight. I am practically immune to painkiller; it took around 3x the usual dosage of anesthetic to numb me when I got a wisdom tooth pulled, and then I was able to drive myself around about 10 minutes later.
Quote:I have a few additional thoughts.
I have personally adopted moderation of sugar starting at the beginning of this year; I eat sugar like most people drink alcohol- special occasions mostly. I feel better overall and I love the effects, though I miss enjoying cookies and such. But the thing is I sorta feel guilty when I eat sweets now. Could it be that guilt from breaking the word of wisdom is conditioned into us by the culture of the church?
Frankly I take issue with “adding” to the WoW. I understand that people adopt special diets by choice sometimes – vegans and vegetarians for example. Other have dietary restrictions because of health issues – diabetics and those with gluten sensitivities for example. There are yet others who choose a gluten free diet for other reasons, sometimes just because they don’t understand that for most people it’s harmless. It was indeed part of the 80’s LDS culture that refined sugar was bad, bleached flour was bad, etc. (at least where I lived it was part of the culture). I’m fine with people choosing their own diets, why should I care what other people eat? It’s when they try to impose those restrictions on others and call it part of the WoW by making connections that aren’t there that bugs me.
Quote:
I suspect that if the WoW were given in our day, it would say a little something about sugar, weed, and narcotics.
I disagree. Sugar and weed did exist in the 1830s. If God was so concerned with coffee and tea, I think he would have been just as concerned with sugar and weed (and yes that is partly tongue-in-cheek). I really believe God gave us intelligence enough to figure out on our own what’s bad and what’s not. I don’t need it to be a commandment to know that narcotics, heroin, weed, etc. are bad things. We don’t need to be commanded in all things and a mindset that we do is what turns us into modern day Pharisees. You can choose not to eat sugar and my neighbor can choose to eat sugar by the pound – I don’t care. Either way it’s not part of the WoW.
Quote:
There is too much focus on the “Do nots” of the WoW and I think this really misses the mark. These take up only a small portion of the overall content of D&C 89, and we do a very poor job about following the rest of it. If you’ve seen the Cannon Center recently, you can definitely see an overabundance of meat and sweets.
Agreed. We tend to focus on the “rules” (like said modern day Pharisees) and miss the mark.
Quote:
The Word of Wisdom is a massive “commitment paywall” for baptisms and retention. Smoking is a particularly obvious habit that is especially hard to quit. Instead of forcing smokers to quit, we should help and encourage them. Coffee is a huge part of western culture and very hard to distance yourself from. Then when you throw in the caffeine misinterpretation that gets thrust on new members sometimes, you get disastrous results. Alcohol is probably easier to cut out, but what do I know?
Individuals vary widely in their addictions. Some can quit smoking cold turkey (my FIL) others try everything and can’t quit (my grandmother, who did quit alcohol cold turkey even though she was an alcoholic).
Quote:I’ve heard that beer was once considered a “mild drink” so even the line on alcohol is hazy.
There are some who still think so and will answer the WoW question appropriately even though they have the occasional beer.
Quote:
While it was pragmatic at the time it was instituted, I don’t think it’s necessarily a good idea to retain the policy that the WoW be a Baptism/TR question. I respect the GA’s judgement and sustain the decision, but I still feel okay disagreeing with them. Even still, I think it would be good to continue to encourage good health habits and following the principles of the WoW and require that all official church functions not have coffee, tea, or alcohol present. It would also be appropriate to continue to expect full WoW adherence from missionaries, GAs, and unit leadership.
I agree that the WoW should not be a gateway to baptism, rather I think they should commit to trying to stop and let us help them along the way (recognizing that some won’t ever be successful but that doesn’t make them “bad people”). I also believe the WoW should not be a TR question. Those are just my personal beliefs, however.Bottom line here is that the WoW is what it is and like many other things is open to some personal interpretation and understanding. For the most part I think those personal understandings and interpretations should remain personal. Don’t eat sugar if you don’t want to, but don’t try to tell me it’s part of the WoW – it is not.
Sorry. My bad about the sugar thing. That was kind of out of place to put it there. By no means am I imposing it on others and I apologize if it comes off as peddling a philosophy. It’s just something I do, and you’re right that it has nothing to do with the WoW. I don’t want to be like your typical vegan. Good point about weed/narcotics. It should be common sense to avoid narcotics at the very least.
Beefster wrote:
Sorry. My bad about the sugar thing. That was kind of out of place to put it there. By no means am I imposing it on others and I apologize if it comes off as peddling a philosophy. It’s just something I do, and you’re right that it has nothing to do with the WoW. I don’t want to be like your typical vegan.Good point about weed/narcotics. It should be common sense to avoid narcotics at the very least.
One of my faults is that I can be very blunt sometimes. Please don’t interpret this as a personal attack on you, it was not meant to be so. Things like this happen with some frequency although less than in the past – but it still bugs me. Other church hobbies (e.g. prepping or dogged devotion to family history) also bug me.
I have actually spent some time trying to figure out what Elder Cook meant with this part from his October 2016 GC address:
Quote:Gospel extremism is when one elevates any gospel principle above other equally important principles and takes a position that is beyond or contrary to the teachings of Church leaders. One example is when one advocates for additions, changes, or primary emphasis to one part of the Word of Wisdom. Another is expensive preparation for end-of-days scenarios. In both examples, others are encouraged to accept private interpretations. “If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.”
My question is what “additions, changes, or primary emphasis” is he concerned about? Since I believe most of the Q15 live in a bubble, I wonder what he hears that concerns him.
Asking about drinking caffeinated sodas in temple recommend interviews comes to mind – and extremists who won’t eat some bread due to small caffeine content. People who refuse to eat fruit unless it is “in season”. People who try to define “sparingly” as a standard for everyone. Stuff like that.
If you want to see that type of “taking it too far” go read “a year of living bibically”. It was funny, but the author didn’t seem to be trying to poke fun.
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