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1b. Do you have faith in and a testimony of His Son Jesus Christ? My answer is a resounding YES.
As with the entire first question, we are asked whether we have faith and testimony, not, do I ‘know’ and accept the standard definition.
I do not have to believe every literal aspect of Jesus Christ. Like Jefferson, I do not place any stock in ‘miracles’, for they seem to be built on a non-scientific, primitive worldview. They’re possible, but I don’t have to believe in them to accept the divinity of Christ. To me, Jesus is ‘the Christ’: the ‘anointed’, or in other words, the ‘archetype’ of the enlightened being.
I do not know if he was born of a virgin or was resurrected physically from the dead. I’d like to believe that he existed as god from everlasting to everlasting, but even this concept isn’t universally believed in the church. As for virgin birth, this might have been a mistranslation of “almah”/young woman as the bible was translated into greek. As for his death and resurrection – I don’t know if these occurred how the scriptures say they do, I tend to think of these events as symbolic/mythological, but I’m not rejecting the possibility they were literally true – they just don’t need to be true for me in my definition of who Jesus Christ is.
This is my testimony of Jesus Christ: I believe that Jesus Christ was a soul fully one with the powers of the universe, he was fully enlightened and thus fully god. Since the church teaches that Jesus Christ learned line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept, I can accept that the man Jesus came to be enlightened in the same way that we can become enlightened. He even said that we should be as he is and follow what he did. He is the archetype: the pattern to follow to be enlightened.
When he declared, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”, he was speaking of the enlightened self – the I AM, who, being authentically one with the powers of the universe in that moment, is completely in harmony with those powers: “The Way”. As well, as he is authentic, he is ‘Truth’, and as he fully is, he is “Life”. This is a symbolic concept, but the power of which is replete in my life.
So, yes, I have faith in and a testimony of Jesus Christ in this every deep sense: he marks the path and leads the Way, and every point defines, to light and life, and endless day, where god’s full presence shines. These words of Eliza R. Snow are as good a definition of enlightenment as any I have read.
Like Wayfarer, this is a question I can answer without hesitation. Christ is The Way and I have found that joy in my life is inextricably tied to living the principles He taught. He was the word made flesh because He appeased justice with mercy and reconciled the estranged with compassion, grace, and the power of virtue. The gospel isn’t just His story – it’s Him and it can be us! His path to exaltation was a walk through humble self-sacrifice and personal abasement. His way was one of bearing injustice willingly to save even His enemies, He embodies the profound truth that
charity never faileth. I have seen this path bear rich and rewarding fruit, reclaiming lost souls in my own circle of influence and reconciling my own heart to those who once were enemies. Interestingly, He is not just the Way, a path to follow. He is also the door (John 10:7-9) and we must enter into His fold, born again, by humbly accepting the undeserved grace He offers in order to be saved and find pasture. Rituals symbolize this passage through the portal of Christ but the real entrance comes in our hearts as what He did as well as why seeps into our understanding, validates the worth of souls, and transform us from within. Accepting the idea that I was worth “descending below all things” changed my life to include instilling in me the profound sense of self required to love others unconditionally even when their actions are hurtful. It has allowed me to find the image of God in the faces of people I once rejected and allowed me to see clearly that virtue and love unfeigned are the most powerful forces in the universe.
I know He is the path to peace and I willingly accept Him as exemplar, Rabbi, Savior, and friend.
I squeak by with a YES. I hope that Jesus is the Christ.
Whether he is a real person, I don’t know. But I love the concept of redemption and atonement and a savior…and a better way to live.
Whether a son of the gods, a man, or a myth…doesn’t matter to me at this time. The question doesn’t ask if I believe in the Mormon concept of Jesus Christ…just if I believe “in his Son, Jesus Christ.”
Yeah. I can squeak a yes out of this one.
cwald wrote:I squeak by with a YES.
Jeeze. Stop squeakin. You’re good. To me, I think of Christ as the “anointed” – the Archetype. Yes, for the sake of teaching the gospel, there was a real guy whose name probably was like ‘joshua’ or ‘y’shua’, who was an itinerant rebbe in the holy land. He said some pretty amazing things, and his followers created a hagiography around him that we now have to accept lock stock and barrel. Mythologization of history. no. big. deal.But I
acceptthe myth as symbolically imperative for me. I follow Jesus Christ, so the symbolism and the rituals are all part of that ‘following’. I put zero stock in the historicity. I don’t even care about the historicity. does that make sense? probably not for most, but then for this insane fool, it does.
Yes – and I don’t care that I’m not sure if the details are literal, symbolic, figurative, etc. I wrote multiple posts on my personal blog recently about the concept of and Atonement and Savior/Redeemer. (I’ve written 3-4 posts a week for over 4 years, so I’ve written about almost every topic imaginable.
😳 ) Rather than try to reconstruct it all, here are the two most recent links:“The Atonement as Literal AND Symbolic”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2012/06/atonement-as-literal-and-symbolic.html “A Further Note on Atonement Symbolism”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2012/06/further-note-on-atonement-symbolism.html I believe completely in Jesus Christ. I have a testimony of the atonement of JC & his role of Savior & Redeemer.
How or why he would do that is still a mystery for me.
Mike from Milton.
/derail I don’t know why I bother posting when my kids are in the same room.
I must use the edit button more than anyone else on the internet.
Me and Jesus 
[img]http://files.myopera.com/Melroy/albums/831188/Jesus%20hugging%20a%20man.jpg [/img] This one’s a toughie for me. I believe in the ideal of atonement. I am attached, culturally and intellectually, to the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels. Does that count? I really don’t know. doug wrote:This one’s a toughie for me. I believe in the ideal of atonement. I am attached, culturally and intellectually, to the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels. Does that count? I really don’t know.
I remember saying “I really don’t know” about a particular religious topic. My partner couldn’t believe that I didn’t have an opinion on the topic, so I decided to figure it out for myself.After I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that I really don’t know, and that is ok. There is a difference between not knowing as “I haven’t decided”, versus deciding that I don’t know and that’s ok.
There are so many things in the church for which I have decided I don’t know, and I believe that is the correct and honest answer. I really don’t know if Joseph Smith was a prophet. I will never know this. He had amazing moments of inspiration, but he also was profoundly flawed. I have faith that he was enough of a prophet to restore aspects of Christianity that were profoundly missing. So I have faith in and a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith, but I do not know.
Likewise on Jesus Christ, there are many aspects of the literal story that don’t make sense, but for me, he is the anointed savior, and I don’t need to know many aspects of his life and ontology besides that.
I think the challenge in being sufficiently faithful to “pass” a temple recommend interview is making the decision and being confident about that decision, even if the decision is “I don’t know”. Faith is expressly a lack of knowledge.
I don’t know if life goes beyond this existence. If it does, then Christ rising from the dead is important, for his resurrection proved somehow that resurrection can come to us as well. But I don’t know any of that, because none of the records are truly reliable as evidence. Nor also is the warm and fuzzy feeling we get. It’s all faith.
Given that, I find a symbolic message in Christ that works for me here and now– makes my life meaningful. This is what I find in the amazing ontology of “I AM”, and the idea of unity with all that is. This is what Christ is for me–and the idea of resurrection, if it comes, is a bonus I don’t count on.
To some is given to know means that to some is not given to know. I think the ratio between those groups depends entirely on the definition of the word “know”. If it’s more experientially defined (
like the way it’s defined throughout the Book of Mormon, interestingly), the knowing group is much larger than if it’s defined scientifically – and I choose to define it in the way I can accept and that makes it more consistent with pure Mormonism. If everyone in the Church could get past the modern hangup of defining that term scientifically – if they could accept “I know” as meaning “I have experienced what I consider to be valid evidence that” or “I believe deeply, based on my own experiences”, much of the cog dis regarding this entire issue would disappear.
Old-Timer wrote:To some are given to know means that to some is not given to know.
I think the ratio between those groups depends entirely on the definition of the word “know”. If it’s more experientially defined (
like the way it’s defined throughout the Book of Mormon, interestingly), the knowing group is much larger than if it’s defined scientifically – and I choose to define it in the way I can accept and that makes it more consistent with pure Mormonism. If everyone in the Church could get past the modern hangup of defining that term scientifically – if they could accept “I know” as meaning “I have experienced what I consider to be valid evidence that” or “I believe deeply, based on my own experiences”, much of the cog dis regarding this entire issue would disappear.
i tend to agree, but ‘know’ and ‘true’ are thrown around so much that they have no meaning in the church. To say “I know the church is true” is to say “I have a feeling of certainty that I am 100% loyal to the church no matter how wrong it seems to be”. Well, maybe I’m going a bit overboard, but wouldn’t it be better to just say what you mean and mean what you say?I would really like to hear a testimony saying, “I don’t know the church is true. I don’t know that JS was a prophet, or what it means to be a prophet. I am pretty sure the gift of the holy ghost is nothing unique between our church and anyone elses. But I tell you what. I love this ward, the companionship of my friends here, and together, we can sort these issues out. Working together, we can uplift each other in really wonderful ways, and I feel wonderful feelings as I read the scriptures and pray with you here.”
wouldn’t it be neat just to be honest? for once?
I’m not sure I would be feel 100% comfortable answering yes to this one if I were to have an interview right now, so I answered no. My feelings about Jesus Christ are almost word for word what wayfarer just described, but I don’t know – I guess I just feel like that is so far from the what most Mormons think of when they say “I believe in Christ” that I’m not sure if I personally feel it is valid. Believing in many aspects of Jesus’ life like the resurrection and atonement I think comes down to an act of faith. We simply do not have enough evidence to pulls me one way or another. But I think to at least some degree the Christology that has been handed to us by Christian tradition over the centuries has elevated him above what He probably was. One thing that is really compelling for me is how the archetype of a savior figure seems to pop up EVERYWHERE in mythologies of various cultures. The idea that all of these things point to Jesus as the Savior is something that I might be able to hang my hat on.
doug wrote:This one’s a toughie for me. I believe in the ideal of atonement. I am attached, culturally and intellectually, to the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels. Does that count? I really don’t know.
I guess I should clarify, only because I am genuinely interested in hearing what others have to say about this and want to make myself perfectly clear.
When I say that I don’t know, I am referring to whether or not my not knowing, or my only believing in these things peripherally, “counts” in the context of a TR interview. Obviously nobody can ultimately answer that for me, but I am curious what others may think.
It never occurs to me to say “I really don’t know” about a religious, spiritual, or even a historical idea or notion, because not knowing is second nature for me. “Knowing” any of these things is not only not possible (for me), but the very notion of “knowing” them doesn’t even have any meaning to me. I don’t want to veer off into a discussion about who can and can’t “know”, and I understand that there are those that believe that they
canknow, etc., but for now I have to agree to disagree, or chalk it up to differences in personality and/or the definition of what it means to “know”. Old-Timer wrote:
If everyone in the Church could get past the modern hangup of defining that term scientifically – if they could accept “I know” as meaning “I have experienced what I consider to be valid evidence that” or “I believe deeply, based on my own experiences”, much of the cog dis regarding this entire issue would disappear.
Wow, that’s a very good point. I said in another thread that I like to hear “I believe,” but why should it bother me at all if someone says “I know”? It could be a very strong belief that someone is expressing and maybe I should not question the depth of their belief. Heck, some people could really, really know. Before a few years ago, I would say it and there really was no doubt in my mind. I would like to get that back.
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