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Sam, I understand what you are saying, but this is bit of the chicken and the egg Analogy. Microwaves really didn’t become popular until both patents were forced to work to musk ends meet.
But this was an advantage that America had that could never last. In many countries it was already true for many
Centuries or millennia. All civilizations rise and fall, come and go and change through time.
It’s inevitable. We just try to “delay” it.
You can always point the finger in hindsight and say X and Y. But the reality is no civilization last forever, especially one built on a system that requires constant spending to grow or it will cave in in itself, which requires constant
Borrowing, which is not sustainable. Actually any monetary system won’t last won’t last long term. The only way we could even achieve what we in our current society are used to as “normal” or traditional
Is to go to a resource based system. Bit any case marriage existed in many different ways, the bible only recorded sections of the Middle East. Other regions throughout the world had even more different concepts of marriage. Society goes through many changes as we grow, marriage is one of them. I look around and I don’t see people any more “self absorbed” them previous societies. I just see a bunch of people trying their best to make ends meet, to survive in a world to big to sustain itself. With the recourses the world has left we probably only can sustain it with 4 billion people if they wanted to live the way we grow up or envisioned “comfortably”.
Try
Going to Tokyo, New York, Mexico City. You won’t get noticed. Too large, too many people living together to pay touch attention to each other. There not trying to be rude, their just stuck in a place to large to give them any attention or be personable. Their just trying to survive in a crowded , over populated environment.
The same is true for all cities, countries and places that grow
Large. It requires major adjustments in order to just survive. Marriage and how many kids you have or have time to raise is one of them. It only gets more problematic the larger the society grows until it caves in on itself like all civilizations before us.
You can rightly argue that just like the society on Easter Island. One thing that has effected marriage as with all forms of life and culture is we are now forever conected and dependent on each other in a WORLD SOCIETY. We ate no longer seperate societies living beside each other. When are all now interconnected and interdependent on each other even if we physically live 1000s of miles apart. That is very recent
In human history. It will forever be that way now with all the advantages and disadvantages.
Economically, socially, religiously. That’s something no government, church, society can change. It brings with it a host of changes and adaptions that need to be made.
Marraige is o people’s minds I see but is no longer the force of their existence. It wasn’t for most of our history on earth either if you study it. We ate now as a human race branching out into multi-functioning or multi-traits that define our existence instead of just putting all our eggs into one basket. Our self worth is branching out intonation
Areas that define us instead of just one. The primary
Reason for marriage was to raise kids. Giving that we have now more people on earth then the resources can sustain that will begin to change as having many kids becomes irresponsible in
Light of the current world population and seeing what we ate leaving future generations with. So people will begin to reassess their priorities and adjust, sr sooner them others. Others will wait till the problems collapses in on itself before they respond. As a Socitey we ate evolving knowing our current reality and marriage and how many children
We have or any is evolving with it. It’s no longer a one size fits all check box. It’s variable
Now. For people in Many countries it has been for quite some time.
But during the rise of the American nation it was not an issue, but no society prospers or endures forever. We had
A good run in America, ignoring the consequences like they did in Easter island, now
It’s time to adjust to the reality and knowledge of the situation or perish as they did. For other Countries that existed longer they already started too. Now we are learning from then on a personal but not governmental level.
Roadrunner wrote:I personally try not to use anything that predates antibiotics as a rationale.
Best comment on this forum!
😆 :clap: Quote:I look around and I don’t see people any more “self
absorbed” them previous societies.
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Of course they are. They have no community, barely socialize, barely walk outside, watch TV, computers, phones, post acres of junk on Facebook, Twitter etc about their boring lives and derivative ideas, Their religion if they have any is about their inner world. They seek medical help, not to be a better member of society, but to talk about themselves.
Someone else looks after the elderly. Kids are off the menu. Keep hiding behind your headphones…
Teenagers are not young adults but a big market whose feelings are to be exploited for commercial purposes. A few generations ago they would have been working, now they just spend money and whine about how empty they feel. This society produces Sandy Hooks.
More people live alone than ever before. They don’t have to go out to shop, bank or work anymore. They prefer a TV screen to a concert or play.
Such people don’t how to have a marriage, let alone a community.
I guess it’s all about perspective Sam. There is no doubt that society is significantly different to how it was 10 years ago, let alone 20 or 50. That doesn’t mean that it is necessarily worse. There were plenty of vices in the past, and it could be argued that they are less of a problem today as we are much more open about them. Globalization is nothing but Americanization of the world. Interdependence is a euphemism put about, but really we’re talking about the same colonial and class dynamics. Keeping billions poor to keep millions rich. It’s not going to last indefinitely though. The rich aren’t breeding. Atomized singletons might be an easily manipulated population, but they die out in the end. Either from suicide or a lonely old age. I understand what you say Sam. The dynamics are far to complex for me to fit into a post. I’ll try to use an example. “Traditional mail” has been on the rapid decline. While MMS and text and so sip media post are way up. Actually social media is on a decline now but that’s not the point. One can look at that data and say “wow, we have changed behavior so much the past “X” years. But before we jump to that conclusion, lets take a closer look.
The delivery system or system itself changed. But the undying behavior has stayed the same.
It just switched communication forms, the desire to send personal communication with each other remains the same. The human behavior stayed the same but took a new route of doing it.
That, like marriage, is in a similar situation.
One can say “divorce rates are up” thereby people are more selfish, cheating, don’t take
Marriage seriously etc. that’s s quick Assumption without being resilient to how the past actually
Was. The past is usually heavenly laminated, growing more distant from objective with each passing legend.
In the recent past you simply couldn’t get divorced. Before that, there is no data beyond relatively
recent human history. We do know many people, especially women felt trapped to live forever due to physical abuse or other issue including social pressure. Look at the Philippines, low divorce rate, seems its going better there. But if you ever visit there you will find a culture and religion that makes it next to impossible to get a divorce. Many stent happy in those current situation, but they can’t leave. So because of that they choose to live a life as if they aren’t married compared by USA standards.
Such was the system in USA not so long ago. The data changed but the underline behavior and cause stayed the same.
It’s dislike working with bankers, analyst, business number crunchers. They now the numbers well, but when I talk to them, I’m stunned to find out how little they know about how they got there or what they are really saying.
It’s like besting my head on the wall and I just give up anymore.
But in some ways the culture of “happily ever after” Is ending. The reality sets in. Marriage doesn’t start with all the problems resolved by the time you get there. But that’s what’s on most people’s minds. By the time try get married, they will have seen 100s if not thousands of “fairy tail” stories.
Of being told they only deserve the best and should hold out for it.
Do you know what the number 1 book category subject is by far?
Romance novels. People are complex, situations are complex. It’s not abnormal to
Feel attracted to someone even after marriage, heck it’s not even abnormal to act on that attraction. And not just in recent times, all throughout human history. But we try to change that behavior, which is good. But like another long time embedded DNA behavior, tribalism and splitting(or black and white thinking). They are all ingrained in us by nature.
It’s hard to change it because society grew so fast, faster then our brains thinking process evolved. It’s why there is still much prehistoric human behavior in us. It isn’t really knew at all. It’s just our human software hasn’t caught up to our human hardware.
It’s a practice that will take many 1000s of years to catch up to. We are still instinctual mammals that have yet to she’d our basic roots from our prehistoric way of thinking and reacting.
We have laminated so much about our past and our legacy they have become romance novels.
Perfect endings or nearly so to us. It’s a good time for a reality check and history and sociology study to remind us of our true past. And I’m not talking church history here. Our global past and emotion do history and and critical
Thinking has only evolved relatively recently in the about 100,000 years we have been around,
The last 200 years compared to 100,000. Our brains and basic behavior still have a long ways to go and grow to catch up to how fast grew as a society. Our brains need time to catch up to how fast we are progressing recently.
Our church has decent social and service aspects which are practically dead elsewhere round here. People are resorting to internet dating, but the sexual act seems to be overtaking the relationship side, to the point where we have so called —- buddies… no hint of companionship or love, just physical gratification. This is all fine and well, until you get old. And alone. Actually aging starts mid twenties….
There are no fairytales, but there are fewer ways to meet women. I could go to a dark and noisy nightclub and attempt to chat up a woman I can neither see nor hear…. but I prefer to take my time. The internet is NOT true social interaction… I think the breakdown of social life, community etc make it harder for marriages to come about, and harder for them to last. We pay thropugh an increase in crime too.
Quote:00 years we have been
around,
The last 200 years compared to 100,000. Our
brains and basic behavior still have a long ways to go and grow to catch up to how fast
grew as a society. Our brains need time to
catch up to how fast we are progressing
recently.
Part of our problem is not the breakup of the nuclear family… it is the nuclear family itself IMHO. We are a tribal species, have been throughout most of our history… we are supposed to live in EXTENDED families, not far flung fragments scattered across the world or loners in megacities, surrounded by people we don’t know, who change every day. Childraising should be done by communities and families not just mothers or paid carers or state-run facilities.
The current set up is unsustainable – socially, demographically, psychologically, environmentally, economically, politically etc etc. It will not last a century more. It is recent, post-dating WWII in most places and cannot be called old.
Hi Sam. Thank you for the conversation and resounding in a polite way. I enjoy things like this, thank you. Before I proceed any further I want to acknowledge that I will be married very shortly after almost 25 years of looking. Yes I became marriage minded at age 12 or so when I first stated dating. Believe it or not my parents and much of thier peers considered it a date if you were with a girl out somewhere at any moment. By that calculation I would have “dated” thousands of times in my life lol. Perception. The logic escapes me. You bring up many valid points. They are true. However the illusion of traditional marriage (in the sence that is proclaimed to be marriage that always was for most of humanity). For thousands of years yes, but 80,000, 60,000, 40,000, 20,000 or even 10,000 years ago? Indeed most of our history has a lack of what we call traditional marriage. Even thousands of years ago it wasn’t remotely close to say the 1800, 1900, 1950 say. People still yearn for it, it’s in our DNA still. I’m happy for that part. But many factors are making it hard to be a likable thing anymore.
Now calling human number 8 billion, now calling human number 20 billion, are you ready for marriage? Eek. The larger the works gets the more impossible it is to live as anything but just a number lost in a vast crowded space. Your right it is unsustainable. We are just now recently realizing the consequences of our actions of turning a blind eye to a non unlimited earth, resources, infinite population growth, momentary systems including capitalism. They are all unsustainable. We’re growing to large to fast without any real answers on how to fix it yet. Well, by the numbers there is, but that’s a pretty herific action to take.
People are feeling lost in a world that is over crowded, they are making adjustments the best they know how. After all, no one has provided answers for them. To live the way we used to. The kind they promise at our church and our forests obtained. The works can’t exceed 3-4 billion as I have heard from various sociology and scientist.
The overcrowding is not universal though. Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Argentina, Russia… none of these are overpopulated. Italy and Japan are on the point of collapse, because they aren’t having enough children. China’s one child policy has resulted in a hidden problem with the elderly… Still… IMHO Japan needs breeding, China does not, Argentina needs it, Brazil does not, Montana needs it more than Florida etc. Without children we jeopardize society… just a matter of where and how many.
Most of the west gets around the demographic problem through racist exploitation of cheap migrant labor. (Mexicans in the US, Turks in Germany, Jamaicans/Poles/Irish in England, Arabs in France)
People like me who live alone put pressure on housing, transport, electricity, fuel etc… because we’re NOT sharing with someone else.Marriage doesn’t transcend this problem. It is not immune any more then the USA is immune to collapse. It happens to all civilizations. Especially those that populate and consume beyond there resources. History is full of this. In more recent times, like our parents generation, the number was over 50% meant their spouse at collage. Many vent of fours college anymore, and for a lot of people they got tired of clubs and bars. Which lead to the Internet dating. We are getting more busier in life. Things are more costly to do,even just to travel somewhere short. so many stay inside. It’s reality. Well over 30% of the 30 years and younger crowd is in poverty. Much more then that for 30 and under in a family. Think that plays a factor in marriage? Marriage is costly in America. Even if you manage to find a mate that oks a cheap marriage and wedding, the risk of being semi permanently broke through divorce is a factor many fear. Especially in today’s economy where they might never recover from it. There are many factors scaring people. Because it has become so hard with time and resources many just don’t see the point during our current situation. Many factors are involved but it has been my experience the least of which is just general lack of interest. The problem resides in that if they can’t afford or can’t find a mate. After all, many many people under the age of 30 can’t afford to live alone and live with there patents now. I can think of maybe 1 women I ever dated that would except that condition. But it’s reality, pretty or not and its nit cause they are lazy by in large. So the secondary factor kicks in, how does a person cope with basic human needs when prospects for marriage are slim to none for many. Well well you probably guessed it. Buddies, a fear of commitment in such dire situations for many. After all, another problem on the list of surviving and try to make a ,icing which consumes most of their time is the last thing they want to take a chance of going wrong. Not another possible problem or headache.
Some people receive government assistance, others that need it don’t. Many that do still struggle to meet basic bills even with supplemental income where they an find it. This is a portion of a situation that is more complex then this but thier are well studied articles out three now.
In short we are reaping the major fallback of our fathers and forefathers. All the social security, medical and wars and other benefits we are paying for is unsustainable. They will get a decent life, but it’s an exchange for their children’s future so they can extend theirs. It’s like physics, take anyway or add to something to take away or add from another.
SamBee wrote:The overcrowding is not universal though. Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Argentina, Russia… none of these are overpopulated.
Shhhh…we don’t want the word to get out. Canada it’s full, tell your friends.
I see what your saying. But your looking at it from a physical (no object can occupy the same space and time point of view. I think. Correct me if I am wrong. There is resources, food, oil, trees, and uneven distribution. But even if it were evenly distributed. The resources are limited. We can’t live the lifestyle our fathers and forefathers did. It’s unsustainable. The resources can’t continue to be consumed at this rate or the civilization will collapse just as Easter island and hundreds of others but on a global scale. 3-4 billion max. If it gets spread out evenly and living the lifestyle our fathers and fir fathers did. Most resources we consume don’t renew or renew incredibly slowly. Even trees that renew faster ate cut down way faster then they fire back, we can’t keep co continue to act this irresponsibly just to produce even more wealth and unsustainable lifestyles. The countries they proclaim to need a population growth. That’s only to avoid the unsustainable and inevitable market even economic crash. It’s throwing a bandaid on spinal cord injury… Umm. And they know it but there is nothing else they can think of to stop the broken system, that’s broken by design. Like we are throwing trillions of dollars a year to stop the economy from collapsing, but who pays for the cost of “kicking the can down the road?. We can’t keep continuing to kick the can to make it someone else’s problem after we die. These decisions have huge implications on social life. Marriage will be hugely effected by this turn of events. It has to, in order to just survive as a race. Business is looking for 3 things, more education candidates to choose from, ever cheaper labor, and ever faster machines.
We are quickly running out of ever faster machines and ever cheaper labor. The business does not care if they promote more people to give birth then there is jobs because they choose from even more candidates creating more competition.
It will implode, just like Ancient Greece, Egypt or Romans. It will effect social including marriage long before it implodes.
But we can turn back now. We can redesign the system if that’s what we as a community demand and work toward a more resource based society where money isn’t given but the iTems needed to live ate directly given through working in a evenly distrusted matter with people not living in excess and sustainable consumption of resources.
That’s what we need to do in order to prevent implosion, along with scaling back the population growth to sustainable levels.
ihhi wrote:SamBee wrote:The overcrowding is not universal though. Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Argentina, Russia… none of these are overpopulated.
Shhhh…we don’t want the word to get out. Canada it’s full, tell your friends.
Lol, they did the same thing in California. Especially the Hispanics, back in the 80s. Shh the jobs ate all full here , go somewhere else lol. Now it really is full of jobs. But not when that first started lol.
I want to visit the great north one day with my soon to be wife. We love the outdoors and national parks.
Sam, interesting test you should mention Argentinia. We are on our way to becoming like them.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/15/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20130116 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/15/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20130116 So much in debt, the president can’t even take the government helicopter to a foreign nation to land or it will get repo.
Imagine if we get treated the same way in return. This kind of economy absolutely effects marriage. In history poor economies always effect social , structure and behaviors.
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